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re: The Top 10 Greatest Generals of All-Time (according to Moneyball math)
Posted on 2/17/19 at 3:35 pm to AU66
Posted on 2/17/19 at 3:35 pm to AU66
Fredericksburg was definitely a high point for the Confederacy and a nadir for the Union. Though I feel like much of that is owed to both the incompetence of the Union high command, as well as its constant infighting. In December 1862, there were two blocs within army HQ: Burnside and Hooker. Burnside was in overall command but many within the army believed the command should have been Hooker's. Hooker believed that, too, and was Burnside's main rival and arch-nemesis within the high command.
Hooker had a lot of allies, chief of which was Major General William B. Franklin - who commanded the Union left at the Battle of Fredericksburg. Franklin's objective was to turn Jackson's line while Major General Edwin Sumner's grand division supported the assault with an attack on Lee's center at Marye's Heights. Franklin, however, failed to properly execute the plan against Jackson's lines. Of the tens of thousands of men Franklin had under his command, only a single division went forward (that of George Meade). And Meade's division actually temporarily achieved a breakthrough. Had Franklin provided timely support with the rest of his force, it's possible Burnside's plan works. But instead, we get the tragedy of Marye's Heights as between 6,000-8,000 Federal infantrymen are shot down before the stonewall.
Burnside alleged after the battle that Franklin deliberately refused to follow his orders due to being a staunch ally of Hooker's. Franklin denied that charge but did do everything in his power to undermine Burnside and have him relieved of command in the battle's subsequent aftermath. At the very least, there was massive amounts of political intrigue and infighting that led to the Union disaster at Fredericksburg.
Hooker had a lot of allies, chief of which was Major General William B. Franklin - who commanded the Union left at the Battle of Fredericksburg. Franklin's objective was to turn Jackson's line while Major General Edwin Sumner's grand division supported the assault with an attack on Lee's center at Marye's Heights. Franklin, however, failed to properly execute the plan against Jackson's lines. Of the tens of thousands of men Franklin had under his command, only a single division went forward (that of George Meade). And Meade's division actually temporarily achieved a breakthrough. Had Franklin provided timely support with the rest of his force, it's possible Burnside's plan works. But instead, we get the tragedy of Marye's Heights as between 6,000-8,000 Federal infantrymen are shot down before the stonewall.
Burnside alleged after the battle that Franklin deliberately refused to follow his orders due to being a staunch ally of Hooker's. Franklin denied that charge but did do everything in his power to undermine Burnside and have him relieved of command in the battle's subsequent aftermath. At the very least, there was massive amounts of political intrigue and infighting that led to the Union disaster at Fredericksburg.
This post was edited on 2/17/19 at 3:37 pm
Posted on 2/17/19 at 3:46 pm to Decisions
quote:
Man, don’t you get tired of using the same damn bait to troll this place? Every month (at the least) you post some thread trying to rile everyone up by propping up Grant, and every month you get torn to shreds. I used to think you were just stubborn in your thoughts, but no normal person would continue to crusade like this.
He has smoked you all in this thread.
This post was edited on 2/17/19 at 3:48 pm
Posted on 2/17/19 at 4:47 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
Lee was most definitely not an idiot, but he was still foolish for taking the tactical offensive in most of his campaigns.
You can’t afford to get defensive when you’ve got much less manpower and materiel than the enemy. It’s precisely why Lee did what he did. It’s why the German army came up with the Schlieffen Plan prior to WWI. They had less men to pull from and less industry.
When you can’t go tit-for-tat with the enemy in regards to manpower, you must try and deliver decisive blows.
quote:
Had he been entrenching and receiving the Union army in 1862
He had the men and materiel to do that in 1862, in 1864 the Confederacy couldn’t go a 1/1 return on men. The union could probably afford to go 2/1 on men and have leftovers.
Posted on 2/17/19 at 5:54 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
Robert E. Lee
quote:
the South's best commander.
Forrest recognized the North's greatest strength, its manufacturing capacity, could be used against them through raiding.
He wasn't afraid of larger engagements, but had the intelligence to spread constant false information, greatly exaggerate his own forces, and bluff his way through engagements.
The South's greatest mistake of the war was putting idiots over him.
I won't claim he was a military prophet incapable of mistakes, I'll simply say I'd take Grant, Jackson, and Forrest over anyone in that war.
And he did not allow looting.
Ps. Sherman can burn in hell.
This post was edited on 2/17/19 at 5:57 pm
Posted on 2/17/19 at 6:02 pm to RollTide1987
Lee is gonna get hate nowadays and I can see how some would say he was overrated. The Civil War by most people prior was expected to only last a few weeks to months. Even southern commanders didn’t see it lasting long. Lee was one of the big reasons the South put up a fight for 4 years. There’s no reason it should have taken the North 4 years to defeat the South. They had every single advantage you can ask for, for an effective offensive.
This post was edited on 2/17/19 at 6:03 pm
Posted on 2/17/19 at 10:16 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
quote:
You can’t afford to get defensive when you’ve got much less manpower and materiel than the enemy.
Yeah...that's not how 19th century warfare worked. If you were the attacker, the maxim was that you needed to outnumber your enemy by 2-1 odds because the defense afforded an army a large advantage as the enemy had to a) come to you and b) attack you while you were entrenched.
This is one of the reasons why McClellan was willing to buy into the intelligence reports that were telling him that Lee outnumbered his own army. Because surely a man commanding an inferior force would sit still and wait for McClellan to come to him.
Posted on 2/20/19 at 9:36 pm to RollTide1987
Gaius Marius deserve an honorable mention at least
Posted on 2/21/19 at 5:00 am to RollTide1987
quote:
03. Arthur Wellesley
Sounds about right. Between his friendship with Harry Potter and being the only wizard on the list, he had a huge advantage over his opponents.
Posted on 2/21/19 at 5:57 am to RollTide1987
No Sun Tzu? List is beyond shite
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