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re: The Boeing 737 Max Crisis Is a Leadership Failure

Posted on 7/21/19 at 7:51 pm to
Posted by soccerfüt
Location: A Series of Tubes
Member since May 2013
76146 posts
Posted on 7/21/19 at 7:51 pm to
quote:

re: The Boeing 737 Max Crisis Is a Leadership Failure
I was talking to a Caterpillar corporate executive at a family reunion this weekend.

I brought this subject up.

Caterpillar would have handled it differently according to this person.

I would have too, not that Boeing asked.
Posted by TouchedTheAxeIn82
near the Apple spaceship
Member since Nov 2012
7526 posts
Posted on 7/23/19 at 2:29 am to
quote:

Oh and frick Boeing for letting the bean counters and cost cutters run the show for too long. That brought this 737 max shite show on their heads.

Here's an interesting article that goes into the background of the merger that killed Boeing:

The Coming Boeing Bailout?

quote:

The merger sparked a war between the engineers and the bean-counters; as one analyst put it, "Some of the board of directors would rather have spent money on a walk-in humidor for shareholders than on a new plane." The white collar engineers responded to the aggressive cost-cutting and politically motivated design choices with the unthinkable, affiliating with the AFL-CIO and going on strike for the first time in the company’s 56-year history. "We weren't fighting against Boeing," said the union leader. "We were fighting to save Boeing."
Posted by TouchedTheAxeIn82
near the Apple spaceship
Member since Nov 2012
7526 posts
Posted on 7/23/19 at 2:37 am to
quote:

Another genius example of Boeing cost cutting: Boeing ending 757 production way too early when there was still going to be demand for it ten years down the road

Here's an article from three years ago describing why the 737 can't do what the 757 could do:

An airline pilot reveals why a plane Boeing discarded 12 years ago is the one they desperately need
Posted by tigerpawl
Can't get there from here.
Member since Dec 2003
22628 posts
Posted on 7/23/19 at 6:23 am to
The symptoms of the recent 737 Max events mirror those of an earlier Airbus 330 incident (erroneous Angle of Attack readings). I think it's a software issue. Why it has not been resolved yet is puzzling.

Qantas 72 (Airbus A330-303)

"The aircraft made a sudden uncommanded pitch down maneuver, recording –0.8 g, reaching 8.4 degrees pitch down and rapidly descending 650 feet (200 m). Twenty seconds later, the pilots were able to return the aircraft to the assigned cruise flight level 370. At 12:45:08, the aircraft then made a second uncommanded maneuver of similar nature, this time reaching +0.2 g, 3.5 degrees pitch down and descending 400 feet (120 m), re-establishing level flight 16 seconds later."

Findings
"After detailed forensic analysis of the FDR data, the flight control primary computer (FCPC) software and the air data inertial reference unit (ADIRU), it was determined that the CPU of the ADIRU corrupted the angle of attack (AOA) data. The exact nature was that the ADIRU CPU erroneously relabelled the altitude data word so that the binary data that represented 37,012 (the altitude at the time of the incident) would represent an angle of attack of 50.625 degrees. The FCPC then processed the erroneously high AOA data, triggering the high-AOA protection mode, which sent a command to the electrical flight control system (EFCS) to pitch the nose down."

This post was edited on 7/23/19 at 6:25 am
Posted by Gaston
Dirty Coast
Member since Aug 2008
41694 posts
Posted on 7/23/19 at 6:35 am to
Boeing’s shitty culture is going to cause NASA to get out of building rockets as well. They suck, and there’s likely no way the SLS gets built under their watch. Just an opinion.
Posted by Mr Breeze
The Lunatic Fringe
Member since Dec 2010
6810 posts
Posted on 7/23/19 at 7:10 am to
It's pretty simple.

Boeing redesigned the flight control software to correct high AoA stall performance due to the use of larger engines the airframe was never designed to handle.

Boeing didn't fully document this feature / bug in the aircraft's flight manual and the pilot flying was thus unaware.

Under some fairly ordinary AoA conditions, the software took over flight control authority from the pilot flying, who unaware was not able to overcome.

This behavior is something I'd never, ever expect from Boeing, and similar to the long standing knock against Airbus' approach to flight control automation.

It's criminal, and even U.S. based airline pilots are screaming bloody murder.
Posted by N2cars
Member since Feb 2008
40305 posts
Posted on 7/23/19 at 7:23 am to
Accurate assessment.

Those change orders though...

Privatization was a foolish move by NASA, but let's face it, they've turned into nothing more than a contracting organization.
Posted by GeauxxxTigers23
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
62514 posts
Posted on 7/23/19 at 7:23 am to
Fly by wire is for pussies anyway
Posted by Gaston
Dirty Coast
Member since Aug 2008
41694 posts
Posted on 7/23/19 at 7:29 am to
Well they always were, just with shittier contractors than now exist for space hardware. LockMart and Boeing are nowhere near the Skunk Works level that gov contractors once were. LM has a bit better culture, but still nothing like its agile competitors.
Posted by N2cars
Member since Feb 2008
40305 posts
Posted on 7/23/19 at 7:38 am to
They had a mission before and they had a better handle on the contractors.

Now, the inmates are running the asylum.

Boeing is one the most arrogant companies I've ever had dealings with, not at all surprised about their current issues.
Posted by Gaston
Dirty Coast
Member since Aug 2008
41694 posts
Posted on 7/23/19 at 7:52 am to
Corporate structure and high level engineering make terrible bedfellows. The story of our past 50 years of space...there will be books written.
Posted by N2cars
Member since Feb 2008
40305 posts
Posted on 7/23/19 at 7:56 am to
I may be prejudiced b/c of my relationship with USA, but things have clearly went to hell post-Shuttle. NASA bears most of the blame for this.

Sorry about the hijack OP.
Posted by greenwave
Member since Oct 2011
3879 posts
Posted on 7/23/19 at 8:02 am to
So is it a buy or sell?
Posted by Lima Whiskey
Member since Apr 2013
22594 posts
Posted on 7/23/19 at 8:04 am to
What happened to NASA? Why did it work out that way?
Posted by N2cars
Member since Feb 2008
40305 posts
Posted on 7/23/19 at 8:09 am to
Lack of direction, lack of mission. Constant leadership change which results in no leadership. Also, the internal struggle of human exploration vs. unmanned missions.

Procurement basically outsourcing everything and becoming so lazy that they let contractors run the show.

Constant "mission slip", deadlines move to the right on the timeline.

There's a lot more, but that's some high (low) points.
Posted by Gaston
Dirty Coast
Member since Aug 2008
41694 posts
Posted on 7/23/19 at 8:09 am to
They should have constantly been building ‘shuttles’, and the last one should not have looked like a flying bus. After Hubble when you knew you didn’t need a cargo transport...IDK, that many years of cost plus and you MFing get billions to build planes for them too. The X-33 is it?
Posted by Lima Whiskey
Member since Apr 2013
22594 posts
Posted on 7/23/19 at 9:42 am to
Thank you
Posted by Cold Drink
Member since Mar 2016
3482 posts
Posted on 7/23/19 at 9:53 am to
quote:

Have any American pilots crashed the 737 Max?

Just checking.
How many other brand new planes are 3rd world pilots flying straight into the ground?

Just checking.



We know this particular error occurred 3 times, 2 of which resulted in complete hull losses. The only other time this instance occurred was on a previous Lion Air flight that happened to have a 3rd pilot in the cockpit to help figure it out in the mere 30 seconds or so you have to figure it out.
This post was edited on 7/23/19 at 9:56 am
Posted by LSUFanHouston
NOLA
Member since Jul 2009
41645 posts
Posted on 7/23/19 at 10:26 am to
quote:

The only other time this instance occurred was on a previous Lion Air flight that happened to have a 3rd pilot in the cockpit to help figure it out in the mere 30 seconds or so you have to figure it out.


This is new information to me.
Posted by N2cars
Member since Feb 2008
40305 posts
Posted on 7/23/19 at 10:47 am to
"They" initially threw that last pilot under the bus. Then it came out he had 8000+ hours.

I get it, he wasn't a retired NASA astronaut (looking at you Hoot), but he wasn't an untrained idiot, either.
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