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re: Some thoughts on the mentally ill, violence and mass shootings.
Posted on 10/26/23 at 6:52 pm to ThuperThumpin
Posted on 10/26/23 at 6:52 pm to ThuperThumpin
I would phrase, they rarely contribute to. If so, typically the paranoid schizophrenic
0
Posted on 10/26/23 at 6:59 pm to Klingler7
quote:
Stanford esteemed professor, Robert Sapolsky, would argue that free will doesn’t exist and a person who becomes a murderer is not responsible for how he/she acts.
His interview with Skeptic Magazine's Michael Shermer was really fascinating. I thought it was going to be a philosophical discussion with a bunch of woo woo non sense but it was very grounded. Im not over the hill of completely accepting no free will but I'm much closer to the peak. Most will attack the notion because of the ramifications but its worth listen
LINK
This post was edited on 10/26/23 at 7:01 pm
Posted on 10/26/23 at 7:00 pm to Pandy Fackler
Did not read all that but we must re-open mental hospitals.
Posted on 10/26/23 at 7:05 pm to Centinel
quote:
Yet mass shootings increased exponentially after the internet became mainstream
FIFY
Posted on 10/26/23 at 7:05 pm to ThuperThumpin
quote:
Not contribute? They may not be the only factor but not sure how you can say they don't or can't contribute. And in some cases literal structural damage to the brain or illness has been cited as contributing factors.
Mental illness does not make someone more likely to commit acts of violence. The mentally ill commit violence against others at the same rate as the general population.
Monsters can have mental illness too but the illness doesn't make the monster do what he does. Nor does it trigger him.
The characterologically defective can also get depressed, have mood swings and suffer from psychosis but these things do not set the stage for his violence. His defect of character does that.
It's a mistake to pigeonhole any sort of mass shooter as being mentally ill. To do so makes an inner city gangster mentally ill. An indiscriminate Hamas murderer mentally ill. A terrorist bomber mentally ill.
What all of these types of mass killers have in common is that they're aggrieved or they've fashioned themselves as victims. They've systematically turned the rest of us into objects or obstacles. Nothing more than insects to be squashed. That process takes time. It's a personal journey and it doesn't happen quickly.
This post was edited on 10/26/23 at 7:08 pm
Posted on 10/26/23 at 7:06 pm to wfallstiger
quote:
There is no answer for these types as they are beyond treatable - medications do not work, therapy does not work
How do you know it doesn't work? Perhaps not all the time but that seems hard to determine
This post was edited on 10/26/23 at 7:07 pm
Posted on 10/26/23 at 7:11 pm to Pandy Fackler
quote:
It's a mistake to pigeonhole any sort of mass shooter as being mentally ill
I get what you are saying and agree but I think there are also cases where it is a contributing factor and if the warning signs had been acknowledged and treatment sought perhaps the outcome would be different. The is no one answer to solve this and I don't think we really can but just do our best to limit the number.
Posted on 10/26/23 at 7:16 pm to ThuperThumpin
quote:
quote:
There is no answer for these types as they are beyond treatable - medications do not work, therapy does not work
How do you know it doesn't work? Perhaps not all the time but that seems hard to determine
In children and adolescents. The characterological disorder that blossoms into what we see in adulthood is called conduct disorder. It's the kid version of anti-social personality disorder.
If caught early in childhood and put on the couch, therapy can have an impact. Otherwise once crystallized in adulthood, anti-social personality disorder is hopeless. It's over.
In fact there's a clinical school of thought that says make no attempt to treat the disorder in adults at all. It's thought that the patient will simply use the skills given in therapy to manipulate and harm others, not to self improve.
A good example of this would be Tony Soprano. Therapy made him a more manipulative and better boss but did nothing to help him become a better person.
This post was edited on 10/26/23 at 7:17 pm
Posted on 10/26/23 at 7:27 pm to ThuperThumpin
25 years experience in inpatient psychiatric treatment - civil, forensic, manifestly dangerous, maximum security [NGRI]
The best predictor of future behavior > past behavior
The best predictor of future behavior > past behavior
This post was edited on 10/26/23 at 7:30 pm
Posted on 10/26/23 at 7:30 pm to jivy26
quote:
We talking about the 15 killings every weekend in Chicago?
If these shootings fit the definition of a mass shooting (and they often do), then yes.
Posted on 10/26/23 at 7:31 pm to Pandy Fackler
quote:
fact there's a clinical school of thought that says make no attempt to treat the disorder in adults at all. It's thought that the patient will simply use the skills given in therapy to manipulate and harm others, not to self improve.
Interesting
Posted on 10/26/23 at 7:33 pm to ThuperThumpin
Sounds like making criminals more criminal in the penal system
Posted on 10/26/23 at 7:37 pm to ThuperThumpin
quote:
quote:
fact there's a clinical school of thought that says make no attempt to treat the disorder in adults at all. It's thought that the patient will simply use the skills given in therapy to manipulate and harm others, not to self improve.
Interesting
Anti-social personality disorder is an interesting thing.
It's often said that if you're unintelligent, you end up dead or in prison. If you are intelligent, you end up a Corporate VP.
Posted on 10/26/23 at 7:42 pm to TCO
quote:
FIFY
Now you're asking the appropriate questions.
Posted on 10/26/23 at 10:14 pm to Pandy Fackler
quote:
None of these mass shooters heard voices or saw things that compelled them to enage in these acts
quote:
The Maine bulletin also states that Card recently reported mental health issues, including "hearing voices and threats to shoot up the National Guard Base in Saco, ME."
Next excuse?
Posted on 10/26/23 at 10:20 pm to shel311
quote:You are incorrect. What he described were characteristics of anti-social personality.
What you're describing is someone who is psychotic, not anti-social, which is a mental illness.
quote:Both anti-social personalities and mental illness can lead to shooting random strangers.
Being anti social doesn't make you shoot up random people in public places. Being mentally ill does
Posted on 10/26/23 at 10:21 pm to Pandy Fackler
I agree with the OP that all these talks about mental illness don’t talk enough about antisocial criminal sociopathy. What we called “ evil “ until the elites forbade it 15 minutes ago.
Posted on 10/26/23 at 10:39 pm to wfallstiger
quote:
They are to be contained as they are a clear danger to society.
Truth but how do you identify them? Who makes that decision?
Posted on 10/26/23 at 10:44 pm to Pandy Fackler
quote:
People don't fully understand how little mental illness has to do with acts of violence, gun or otherwise.
The premise of this statement is that we (society) all agree on the definition of "Mental Illness". Sure there are obvious cases, but there will never be consensus on who is and isn't mentally ill.
EDIT
To add, even if there were a consensus, the goal posts move over time. An example would be transgenders. As recent as twenty years ago, a person wishing to mutilate his/her body in the name of self defining their gender wouldve been considered a mental illness. Hell the thought of self defining ones gender in itself wouldve had someone diagnosed as mentally ill.
This post was edited on 10/26/23 at 10:52 pm
Posted on 10/27/23 at 12:26 am to Pandy Fackler
It seems like you’re arguing semantics tbh.
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