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re: Rush Limbaugh thinks evolution is a hoax because gorilla never became human

Posted on 6/1/16 at 7:34 pm to
Posted by TJGator1215
FL/TN
Member since Sep 2011
14174 posts
Posted on 6/1/16 at 7:34 pm to
I'm not anti-science. I'm anti theories portrayed as facts filled with speculation, guesses, and lacking empirical evidence demonstrating that we came from a bacteria strain or that we evolved from a human/ape hybrid that led to us.
Posted by tuptiger
Member since Jan 2008
4314 posts
Posted on 6/1/16 at 7:35 pm to
Not necessarily. I respect your arguments.

Similarities in the DNA arguments are interesting. It falls apart at chimps to me. We have like a 98% match in DNA sequencing, but humans have an ability to reason that far outweighs chimps. I get that chimps have been trained to use sign language, but training a chimp use sign language and the complexity of language humans possess is different to me. Technology is different to me as well.

I understand that's not totally germane to the discussion of whether or not humans evolved from apes or whether or not they are related to humans because of the gene code. It's possible that the similarities are just that and not a result of relatedness.
Posted by OMLandshark
Member since Apr 2009
120445 posts
Posted on 6/1/16 at 7:35 pm to
quote:

How "should" evolution work? WTF kind of question is that? I understand evolution.


What kind of a question is "why doesn't a moth turn into a bee"? It's a stupid one, and in order to seriously ask that, you clearly don't have a clue what evolution means.
Posted by Pectus
Internet
Member since Apr 2010
67302 posts
Posted on 6/1/16 at 7:38 pm to
You should watch more videos on chimps.

They are pretty interesting. They have wars with other chimps sometimes even using weapons!
Posted by tuptiger
Member since Jan 2008
4314 posts
Posted on 6/1/16 at 7:38 pm to
So, you think evolution is a conscious decision?

You totally took the moth didn't become a bee out of context. It was an argument about natural selection and macroscale evolution. The point was that the moth stayed a moth. It didnt become a different species.

So, if evolution is true, what evolved first? The MRNA that reads the DNA and creates a template strand or the DNA, which can't be read without the MRNA?
This post was edited on 6/1/16 at 7:41 pm
Posted by dbeck
Member since Nov 2014
29454 posts
Posted on 6/1/16 at 7:43 pm to
We're smarter because we have the largest brain to body ratio. Larger brain is not necessarily better though. It requires a lot more energy consumption. In an environment with very little food (and specifically protein) a smaller more efficient brain can be more beneficial.

Some species fit their niche perfectly and have never really been supplanted by a superior one (see sharks).
Posted by OMLandshark
Member since Apr 2009
120445 posts
Posted on 6/1/16 at 7:46 pm to
quote:

So, you think evolution is a conscious decision?



Of course not, but the bear in the Arctic that had a white coat mutation lived to fight another day, while it's brown counterpart starved to death in the same location.

quote:

You totally took the moth didn't become a bee out of context. It was an argument about natural selection and macroscale evolution.



It's nonsense. You may as well be saying why don't I have a shark for a kid. The bee and the moth are almost that far away in the evolutionary chain from each other as we are from sharks. It would never happen. It might be the most nonsense argument I've ever heard when it comes to evolution.

quote:

So, if evolution is true, what evolved first? The MRNA that reads the DNA and creates a template strand or the DNA, which can't be read without the MRNA?



It doesn't matter "who evolved first". All that matters is that at one point the moths ancestors went down one path, and then at another the bees ancestors went down a different path. You clearly don't have a clue about evolution.
This post was edited on 6/1/16 at 8:17 pm
Posted by Bmath
LA
Member since Aug 2010
18912 posts
Posted on 6/1/16 at 7:50 pm to
quote:

So, you think that diagram has been observed? Do you think the succession of apes to human graphic has been witnessed or obeserved? Are you retarded?




We can actually use genomics to compare the relatedness of various specious. Based upon the % similarity in the DNA we can actually estimate when various species diverged. We are now able to match this with taxonomy using the fossil record. It isn't perfect, but you have to know a little bit about the rarity of fossils to understand why.

The problem with convincing evolution deniers is that most macroscopic creatures have long generation times. Let's say it takes 50,000 generations for a species to evolve, that's about a million years for humans.

Many microbes have fast generation times, but what defines a species is incredibly complicated. Species get broken up into strains, and these strains can be as closely related to one another as a human is to a lemur. Microbes can also carry out horizontal gene transfer, which allows individuals to quickly acquire traits from entirely unrelated species.

So to drive home my point:



Animals, including humans, are just a tiny blip on the so called tree of life.
Posted by tuptiger
Member since Jan 2008
4314 posts
Posted on 6/1/16 at 7:55 pm to
Its not about a goddamn moth becoming a bee. The guy I was originally arguing with used the peppered moth example to demonstrate the macroscale evolution. This point is dead. I'm not arguing that a human could have a shark as a kid.

You're taking the molecular genetics argument as parallel to the argument about the moth. They are separate arguments.

I want you to answer which came first. MRNA or DNA. It absolutely matters.

Did bees or flowers come first? Coevolution is absolutely a fair in a discussion of evolution because it's potentially a hole in the entire theory of evolution.
Posted by Bmath
LA
Member since Aug 2010
18912 posts
Posted on 6/1/16 at 7:59 pm to
quote:

Similarities in the DNA arguments are interesting. It falls apart at chimps to me. We have like a 98% match in DNA sequencing, but humans have an ability to reason that far outweighs chimps


The human genome is massive. You and I are over 99% genetically similar, but that less than 1% difference allows for a wide range of genotypic differences. This creates differences in gene expression that account for everything from skin color to disease.

So when you look at what that means for humans and chimps it is pretty easy to see how much of a difference that 2% creates.
This post was edited on 6/1/16 at 8:26 pm
Posted by LucasP
Member since Apr 2012
21618 posts
Posted on 6/1/16 at 8:01 pm to
quote:

I'm anti theories portrayed as fact


I'm with you. A theory is a theory, some are better than others and the vast majority are proven wrong and replaced by better theories supported by more
quote:

empirical evidence


However, at the moment evolution is the best theory we have with no serious theory in competition. When someone proposes something more valid, I'll support it. Have you heard one you'd like to share?
This post was edited on 6/1/16 at 8:02 pm
Posted by OMLandshark
Member since Apr 2009
120445 posts
Posted on 6/1/16 at 8:04 pm to
quote:

Its not about a goddamn moth becoming a bee.


Yes it is, because that shows to me you don't understand evolution. To someone who has an understanding of evolution, that is a highly bizarre thing you said. Anyone of intelligence immediately knows they're talking to a full fledged simpleton when they bring that up. I'm not going to let you get away with that incredibly stupid statement.

quote:

Did bees or flowers come first?


The bee or its ancestor almost certainly. The tree that evolved to have flowers attracted insects to it and it was able to spread it's seed far more rapidly than before. Without insects, there is no evolutionary advantage to flowers and it wouldn't have lived on for long. Specific species of bees evolved afterwards as a result of the flower.
Posted by OweO
Plaquemine, La
Member since Sep 2009
122026 posts
Posted on 6/1/16 at 8:05 pm to
quote:

TJGator1215


You really are a dumbass. I think you missed my point, but you are an idiot.. There is no point in trying to explain anything to your dumb arse.
Posted by Napoleon
Kenna
Member since Dec 2007
74175 posts
Posted on 6/1/16 at 8:09 pm to
quote:

came from a bacteria strain or that we evolved from a human/ape hybrid that led to us.


why is that funnier than being made from dirt, or a rib pulled out of another person?

Posted by OweO
Plaquemine, La
Member since Sep 2009
122026 posts
Posted on 6/1/16 at 8:13 pm to
quote:

why is that funnier than being made from dirt, or a rib pulled out of another person?



I am still trying to figure out why god needed to pull out Adam's rib if he created Adam, without another human to take a rib from. Then how the hell did two people populate the world? You know what it would take for that to happen? A bunch of brothers and sisters fricking each other first of all.
Posted by Ancient Astronaut
Member since May 2015
37321 posts
Posted on 6/1/16 at 8:16 pm to
Evolutionary Biologist would agree with that statement. Our ancestors were not gorillas.
Posted by Napoleon
Kenna
Member since Dec 2007
74175 posts
Posted on 6/1/16 at 8:17 pm to
and then start all over again with Noah and his family.

Posted by OweO
Plaquemine, La
Member since Sep 2009
122026 posts
Posted on 6/1/16 at 8:18 pm to
quote:

and then start all over again with Noah and his family.




Not to mention, he had to round up two of every animal on Earth including the animals that didn't live in the region that no one knew about until 100s (or 1000s) of years later.
Posted by foshizzle
Washington DC metro
Member since Mar 2008
40599 posts
Posted on 6/1/16 at 8:30 pm to
Reposting since nobody seems to understand this. It actually makes perfect sense to anyone with a brain.

quote:

The basic idea is not that individuals living today can suddenly transform. They don't. The idea is that all creatures have children, and mutations happen. Most mutations are bad, when that happens we call it a birth defect and feel sad.

But every now and then there's a mutation that at least isn't bad, for example there have been a couple of guys with six fingers on one hand who wound up pitching in the majors (Google it). Sometimes there's a really good one that improves survival and therefore lets that child have even more grandchildren than normal. And the descendants of *that* child will tend to carry the mutation and spread. If it happens enough the descendants with the new "good" mutation will gradually take over.

We've seen this happen over an over in species with short lifespans, like bacteria for example, but also certain kinds of birds and moths.
Posted by Clockwatcher68
Youngsville
Member since May 2006
8022 posts
Posted on 6/1/16 at 8:37 pm to
quote:

I'm not anti-science. I'm anti theories portrayed as facts filled with speculation, guesses, and lacking empirical evidence demonstrating that we came from a bacteria strain or that we evolved from a human/ape hybrid that led to us.


Darwin, their god, admitted that there were huge gaps in the fossil record. There is not just one missing link, there should be thousands of links that have yet to be observed. Why? "Meh, the fossil record is incomplete. It's faulty." Okay. It's a decent theory, but calling doubters idiots does not prove the theory. Sorry.
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