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re: No nukes: Who wins if the Air Force and Navy were to fight each other?
Posted on 7/22/18 at 12:32 am to meeple
Posted on 7/22/18 at 12:32 am to meeple
quote:
Yeah but it will still slow them down. Besides the ships will be toast from the B2s. They can fly almost halfway around the world on a refuel. Set the refuel in a likely safe zone.
Can the B2 even attack a ship effectively? Its armaments are designed to hit targets which tend to stay in one spot and not move at 40 knots across the ocean or it only has to be accurate enough to hit a city because it's lobbing a nuke, but we're not playing with those because the Air Force loses even faster if we do.
Besides, anything slow moving coming at a ship of the line is going to be handled by the CIWS, so that pretty much makes gravity bombs and cruise missiles useless. The CIWS will ignore anything that won't hit the ship and will chew up what might. Ultra fast missiles flying just above the water present a much different problem for a ship. However, I can't find anything that says the B2 can carry anti-ship missiles.
This post was edited on 7/22/18 at 12:46 am
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Posted on 7/22/18 at 12:56 am to TigerstuckinMS
quote:
Can the B2 even attack a ship effectively? Its armaments are designed to hit targets which tend to stay in one spot and not move at 40 knots across the ocean or it only has to be accurate enough to hit a city because it's lobbing a nuke, but we're not playing with those because the Air Force loses even faster if we do.
Ships will not know they are there to be set in motion. Even if they are the B2s can project the target and even carpet bomb them. No nukes needed.
quote:
Besides, anything slow moving coming at a ship of the line is going to be handled by the CIWS, so that pretty much makes gravity bombs and cruise missiles useless.
CIWS are anti-missile and aircraft gatling guns on steroids. No way they prevent an unexpected carpet bombing coming from directly overhead.
This post was edited on 7/22/18 at 12:59 am
Posted on 7/22/18 at 12:57 am to TigerstuckinMS
quote:
Besides, anything slow moving coming at a ship of the line is going to be handled by the CIWS, so that pretty much makes gravity bombs and cruise missiles useless.
CIWS wouldn't even slow a cruise missle down. You do know that the CIWS fires 20mm ammo? Now, SEA-RAM is a different story. It shoots rockets.
Posted on 7/22/18 at 1:01 am to DannyB
quote:
SEA-RAM is a different story. It shoots rockets
Not sure what this is but if it's anti-missile I don't think it could prevent an unexpected carpet bombing from a B2 either.
Posted on 7/22/18 at 1:01 am to TigerstuckinMS
In the future, a B-52 assigned to anti-ship/littoral warfare targets may sport half a rack of stealthy JASSMs, for hitting key port facilities, while the other half is full of the JASSM’s stealthy anti-ship missile cousin, the Long-Rang Anti Ship Missile (LRASM), used for hitting ships guarding the port itself. Basically, a handful of B-52s loaded out in such a fashion could destroy an enemy’s strategic port facilities and nearby combat ships without ever even traveling within range of the enemy’s air defenses.
So yes a B 52 could take out a base, ship yards, boats in dock, boats guarding the port, and others
So yes a B 52 could take out a base, ship yards, boats in dock, boats guarding the port, and others
This post was edited on 7/22/18 at 1:03 am
Posted on 7/22/18 at 1:04 am to bulldog95
In the end the B-52 could become so deadly, tactically agile and relevant that it could live well past its 100th birthday, continuing towards the latter half of the century as America’s go-to weapons and sensors truck. Its long awaited internal smart bomb rack and updated satellite communications system maybe just the beginning of the BUFF’s powerful second wind.
Posted on 7/22/18 at 1:04 am to meeple
quote:
Ships will not know they are there to be set in motion. Even if they are the B2s can project the target and even carpet bomb them. No nukes needed.
It takes well over a minute for bombs to land from 25000 feet and the B2's going to be higher than that. Again, we're talking about a warship doing 40 knots over the water, not a building or a convoy of trucks going down a road. They might not see the bomber, but they're sure as hell going to see the bombs coming. They'll turn.
This post was edited on 7/22/18 at 1:08 am
Posted on 7/22/18 at 1:05 am to bulldog95
quote:
In the future, a B-52 assigned to anti-ship/littoral warfare targets may sport half a rack of stealthy JASSMs, for hitting key port facilities, while the other half is full of the JASSM’s stealthy anti-ship missile cousin, the Long-Rang Anti Ship Missile (LRASM), used for hitting ships guarding the port itself. Basically, a handful of B-52s loaded out in such a fashion could destroy an enemy’s strategic port facilities and nearby combat ships without ever even traveling within range of the enemy’s air defenses
Given the B2s AF has a slight, if not considerable advantage. If this is implemented it's game over.
Posted on 7/22/18 at 1:08 am to TigerstuckinMS
Unlike current anti-ship missiles the LRASM is expected to be capable of conducting autonomous targeting, relying on on-board targeting systems to independently acquire the target without the presence of prior, precision intelligence, or supporting services like Global Positioning Satellite navigation and data-links. These capabilities will enable positive target identification, precision engagement of moving ships and establishing of initial target cueing in extremely hostile environment. The missile will be designed with counter-countermeasures to evade hostile active defense systems.[10]
Posted on 7/22/18 at 1:09 am to meeple
quote:
Given the B2s AF has a slight, if not considerable advantage. If this is implemented it's game over.
But it doesn't exist yet. If the Navy had unicorn launched intercontinental runway penetrators, it would be game over, too, but they don't.
Play with existing real weapons, not what's in development and undeployed. When it does show up, though, it changes the calculus.
This post was edited on 7/22/18 at 1:16 am
Posted on 7/22/18 at 1:10 am to bulldog95
Can the B2 be equipped with the LRSAMs?
Posted on 7/22/18 at 1:14 am to meeple
quote:
Not sure what this is but if it's anti-missile I don't think it could prevent an unexpected carpet bombing from a B2 either.
There is no way they could keep it reloaded fast enough to keep up with a carpet bombing. Hell, the CIWS mentioned before would be even worse. The damn things only hold 1500 rounds and a typical engagement would eat up 250-500 rounds per incoming small rounds.
Posted on 7/22/18 at 1:18 am to TigerstuckinMS
quote:
Play with existing real weapons, not what's in development for deployment ten years from now. When it does show up, though, it changes the calculus.
Ok, let the B2s have all the fun wrecking the Navy then
Plus whatever is out there we don’t know about that is currently in service. This kind of tech is usually limited to the AF and not released until it’s been in service for years.
Posted on 7/22/18 at 1:20 am to meeple
The RATTLRS project also focused heavily on the anti-ship role, which might be a future capability of any hypersonic cruise missile-armed B-52 in the future. Late in the Cold War, the Air Force configured a number of B-52G as ship-killers carrying AGM-84 Harpoon missiles.
Given increasing concerns about the growing naval capabilities among potential near peer-opponents, such as Russia and China, the Air Force has been working on restoring the anti-ship capabilities of both B-52 and B-1 bombers. On June 21, 2018, the service announced it the 28th Bomb Wing and its B-1s at Ellsworth Air Force Base would be the first to return to this role armed with AGM-158C Long Range Anti-Ship Missile (LRASM).
This post was edited on 7/22/18 at 1:22 am
Posted on 7/22/18 at 1:26 am to bulldog95
The B-1 is one of my favorite aircraft. Used to watch them run touch n go’s from my aunt’s apartment across the street from McConnell AFB.
Posted on 7/22/18 at 1:28 am to meeple
My dad was in the Air Force during the late 60’s and 70’s.... he was stationed at Barksdale for awhile. I’ve heard a lot about B 52’s and other aircrafts. I love going to the air show there
Posted on 7/22/18 at 1:33 am to weagle99
quote:If by "fight each other" you mean going down on each other, I'll give my vote to the Navy.
No nukes: Who wins if the Air Force and Navy were to fight each other?
Posted on 7/22/18 at 1:41 am to Volvagia
quote:I am referring to the ECM systems the Navy utilizes. "Counter measures" doesn't just refer to jamming anymore. We have countermeasures for physical threats now.
Even if each attack platform got 100% efficiency, one shot, one kill, they’ll run out of damn ammo before downing 500 attacking birds.
And that’s also not using ammo in taking out vampires.
I mentioned one hing, and I am hesitant to mention more. Suffice it to say that the navy can take out several aircraft without expending any ordinance.
The sheer number and combat effectiveness is a huge question mark, as we have not had the opportunity to test it in combat situations.
But that would offset some of the ordinance concerns.
Interesting note: The Argentinian Air Force is the only group to give our radar and unmanned weaps a challenge.
They were still using some prop planes that were too slow and maneuverable for our automated systems to track.
Posted on 7/22/18 at 1:59 am to weagle99
The United States Navy is globally the single most powerful force to ever exist!
Posted on 7/22/18 at 7:52 am to meeple
Okay.
Stealth does not equal undetectable. Especially against an Aegis platform that can conform its beam to the situation.
If your planes attempt to “carpet bomb” they’ll be shot down. Also, I’m not aware of any carpet bombing tactic in naval engagements in WW2.
Now, for stand off weapons/plus using the platform in general (aka “just use the b-2s to patrol and wait for the subs to surface even though they can stay submerged for months”:
Dude, the ocean is a big fricking place. If they are looking to find something you aren’t going to get it just flying around. If you turn on radars, just forget about stealth. And you are going to need a target resolution larger than the 50-100 mile radius that satellites can give you to target a stand off weapon.
If you took every single high stealth craft the AF had in its aresenal, they couldn’t effectively patrol the damned Gulf of Mexico. Forget about the two big arse oceans on the side.
Stealth does not equal undetectable. Especially against an Aegis platform that can conform its beam to the situation.
If your planes attempt to “carpet bomb” they’ll be shot down. Also, I’m not aware of any carpet bombing tactic in naval engagements in WW2.
Now, for stand off weapons/plus using the platform in general (aka “just use the b-2s to patrol and wait for the subs to surface even though they can stay submerged for months”:
Dude, the ocean is a big fricking place. If they are looking to find something you aren’t going to get it just flying around. If you turn on radars, just forget about stealth. And you are going to need a target resolution larger than the 50-100 mile radius that satellites can give you to target a stand off weapon.
If you took every single high stealth craft the AF had in its aresenal, they couldn’t effectively patrol the damned Gulf of Mexico. Forget about the two big arse oceans on the side.
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