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Message
re: "Militarization of the Police" discussion
Posted on 8/19/14 at 1:20 pm to Jcorye1
Posted on 8/19/14 at 1:20 pm to Jcorye1
quote:
You keep going with this argument, assuming we are only talking about armor. Police are also practicing military style maneuvers and using military grade weapons.
Because, as I asked at the beginning, is it the way they LOOK or is it what they are DOING? No one has answered that. As far as the weapons, are you talking lethal weapons (the ones that they haven't fired a single time?) or are you talking about the less lethal pepperball guns, tasers, etc? Because, for the most part, the military doesn't use those.
Or is it the tear gas and smoke? Because the police were using that in the 60's and no one was crying "military" back then.
3
Posted on 8/19/14 at 1:21 pm to NIH
quote:
you don't have to look like Bane to put down looting and rioting.
Only they aren't putting down the looting and rioting. Why complain about their being militarized when their being militarized seems to be having no effect?
If anything eight nights of rioting and looting might lead one to believe they aren't militarized enough.
Posted on 8/19/14 at 1:21 pm to jbgleason
quote:
armored vehicle
Because there is zero need to have vehicles designed for military combat. Less than one percent of all crimes involving a weapon deal automatic assault rifles.
I think it also stems from the fact police are raiding houses SWAT style for crimes that do not necessitate that action. When you keep reading day in and day out that they raided the wrong house or someone with a pot farm, it just gets upsetting.
Lastly, combining the militrization of the police with the blue fricking line is my biggest beef. If a policeman or woman fricks up, you hide it. I've seen, heard, and been a part of issues where you see the US. VS. THEM mentality. If a cop t-bones my car, I shouldn't be scared that they will taint the investigation, but I am. I shouldn't be worried that if I go the same speed as a non-flashing police vehicle that I'll get a ticket, but I do.
Police abuse their authority, and then are protected by other police. How do you want us to act?
Posted on 8/19/14 at 1:22 pm to constant cough
quote:
rioting. Why complain about their being militarized when their being militarized seems to be having no effect?
strategy =/= equipment
police in the 60s/70s put down real riots with night sticks and peper spray.
This post was edited on 8/19/14 at 1:23 pm
Posted on 8/19/14 at 1:22 pm to NIH
quote:
you don't have to look like Bane to put down looting and rioting.
What do you have to do, and why didn't you tell someone instead of keeping it a secret?
Posted on 8/19/14 at 1:23 pm to constant cough
quote:
If anything eight nights of rioting and looting might lead one to believe they aren't militarized enough.
They're wearing full riot gear and using bearcats to just lob smoke. Oversimplifying obviously. They seem a bit bipolar in their response. Dressing for war and then playing pattycake.
Posted on 8/19/14 at 1:23 pm to junkfunky
quote:
What do you have to do, and why didn't you tell someone instead of keeping it a secret?
i have no problem with the police kicking arse on the looters.
Posted on 8/19/14 at 1:24 pm to the808bass
quote:
I don't think police break up as much crime as we think. When I need the police and if I can call them at that point, the likelihood that they arrive after the incident is already over is pretty high.
anecdote:
back when i used to "stay at" a house in a "transitional neighborhood," i would call about gunshots, crack deals on the street (and I'm pro-legalization of most all drugs, but if it's illegal and with the attendant other crimes that come with that, I'm not going to tolerate it in the front yard), and thefts in progress, not once did I get a response. I had to leave a message with someone and that was the end of it.
On the other hand, I turned right on red despite a very poorly displayed sign, with no traffic, and a swill of beer left in a can i'd picked up in a rainstorm to throw away, and I get pulled over, searched and threatened by two AA police officers, and the book thrown at me.
This is but one example of a dichotomy I experience regularly.
See you later--off to loot!
Posted on 8/19/14 at 1:24 pm to NIH
quote:
i have no problem with the police kicking arse on the looters.
Sweet, me too.
Posted on 8/19/14 at 1:25 pm to jbgleason
quote:
Not to mention that it is a completely different skillset, being a soldier and being a policeman. UNLESS you guys are saying that being a soldier and being a policeman are the same and, in that case, shouldn't they have the same equipment?
Wait...what? I don't think they ought to have this type of equipment, but so long as they do then they at least ought to have proper training and based on comments from many military guys, their actions on he streets in this case show that they have not.
quote:
Because a few minutes ago everyone was saying they are completely different things. So why do you give a crap what a soldier has to say about how a policeman does his job?
Because they are utilizing military equipment and similar tactics? In theory, they are different. But if you're going to militarize the police, then at least do it right. They are getting both aspects wrong from my perspective.
Posted on 8/19/14 at 1:25 pm to NIH
quote:
strategy =/= equipment
police in the 60s/70s put down real riots with night sticks and peper spray.
So then what is the strategy is letting uncontrolled criminal rioting and looting occur for eight straight nights?
If they can stop it with sticks and pepper spray then why aren't they?
Posted on 8/19/14 at 1:25 pm to jbgleason
How about dumbass cops walking around with their guns drawn and pointing them at innocent civilians. Guess they're just protecting us
Posted on 8/19/14 at 1:26 pm to jbgleason
It's been answered multiple times, you just keep focusing on the "we should be able to protect ourselves!!!!" section of it.
No, I do not think police have any use for Iraqi grade Humvees. I also do not believe the police should be trained in a military subculture of "ATTENTION!" every time a commanding officer comes in.
Also, if you think that body armor isn't being designed to be a psychological deterrent, you are out of your mind.
No, I do not think police have any use for Iraqi grade Humvees. I also do not believe the police should be trained in a military subculture of "ATTENTION!" every time a commanding officer comes in.
Also, if you think that body armor isn't being designed to be a psychological deterrent, you are out of your mind.
Posted on 8/19/14 at 1:26 pm to Jcorye1
quote:
Because there is zero need to have vehicles designed for military combat. Less than one percent of all crimes involving a weapon deal automatic assault rifles.
Tyler, TX — Howard Tod Granger was surrounded.
Lenco BearCat G3 at his front gate, sheriff at the back, helicopter in the sky, and a sniper in the yard.
The body was buried in his shed: Benjamin Gill Clements, former governor’s son, millionaire from Dallas.
Clements, 69, purchased tracts of land like other men bought cattle. Granger’s five acres in Henderson County had been surrounded by the retired CEO’s metal fences, private lakes and planted pines for years before the police encircled Granger on Oct. 22.
That afternoon, the law called out for Granger. He stepped out of his little blue house and answered with an AK-47.
Police say Granger unloaded 30-plus rounds into the Lenco BearCat G3 before a sniper shot him dead. And sometime between the first bullet and the last, they heard him scream what likely were his last words.
Sgt. Mike Levesque
At 2300 hours on March 2, 2004, the SWAT unit was activated in reference to a barricaded gunman call. Our typical procedure in a call like this is the following:
1) Establish perimeter and relieve uniform personnel.
2) Deploy Snipers.
3) Organize an emergency assault/arrest team.
4) Establish communication via use of negotiators.
In this particular case the suspect would not respond to telephone calls made by our crisis negotiators. In an effort to exhaust all avenues of resolution we deployed a portable PA system and tried to get as close as possible without being in his line of fire, so that the suspect would hear us. Due to the distance, in most cases, there was no assurance that the suspect was hearing what we were saying.
Here is where the BearCat shines brightly. The commander of the team (Capt. Paul Gravel) advised me to prepare the BearCat for deployment. I was advised to drive right up to the house so the negotiators could attempt to negotiate from inside the vehicle using the BearCat’s PA System and also using the (2) 400,000 candlepower spotlights to illuminate the location with a wall of light.
I did this without reservation or hesitation for I was quite comfortable with the 15,800 pounds of half- inch thick armor plate and 66mm ballistic glass I was surrounded by. It was as if I was in a high tech bunker. One of the negotiators (former military) , was cool with this tactic but the other one had serious reservations about the risk we were taking, mainly due to a lack of knowledge on his part of the BearCat’s capabilities. We both assured him of how sound a tactic this was and that there wasn’t anything in this City, which could penetrate the vehicle.
The BearCat also served as a huge security blanket for the gas team to deploy gas safely. After the (5) 37mm gas rounds were deployed the suspect exited the home without incident. There were no injuries and all involved using the BearCat felt extremely secure in their role in causing the suspect to surrender.
Posted on 8/19/14 at 1:27 pm to the808bass
quote:
@PaulSzoldra LRAD (Long Range Acoustic Device), the last place I saw one of those was at the Iraqi detention facility.
quote:
A lot of vets, me included, would go to Ferguson and gladly teach some classes on crowd control and patrolling You are fricking it up.
quote:
I leveled my weapon twice overseas. Leveled. Not fired. I had legit threats and went through proper EOF. Stop fricking up, Ferguson PD.
vets' comments on Ferguson PD shytshow
LINK
Posted on 8/19/14 at 1:28 pm to LSU1NSEC
Of course. What else could anyone expect when you let Barney Fifes play NAVY Seal?
Posted on 8/19/14 at 1:30 pm to hendersonshands
quote:
How about dumbass cops walking around with their guns drawn and pointing them at innocent civilians. Guess they're just protecting us
Are you saying a cop would take a weapon and use it in a threatening manner? NEVER! The protect and serve, and anybody who says anything different must be a criminal.
I just think it's funny these cops act like we are idiots. They act like I've never been pulled over, asked to have my car searched, and sneared and informed that I must have something to hide when I said no. That we haven't been told saying no to police at the front door is "probable cause" for investigation. When you protect the bad eggs, everyone becomes infected.
Posted on 8/19/14 at 1:31 pm to hendersonshands
quote:
How about dumbass cops walking around with their guns drawn and pointing them at innocent civilians.
Why do y'all keep saying this like they're using live ammo? They are loaded with rubber bullets, bean bags or in the case of the paintball guns, pepper balls. Just curious?
Posted on 8/19/14 at 1:33 pm to the808bass
quote:
They're wearing full riot gear and using bearcats to just lob smoke. Oversimplifying obviously. They seem a bit bipolar in their response. Dressing for war and then playing pattycake.
Excuse me if I am mistaken here as I have not kept up with all of the thousands of updates coming from Ferguson. I believe I read that the police have had like 20 cruisers destroyed, rocks and molotov cocktails thrown at police, and actual live rounds being fired at the police last night.
Wouldn't an armored car and body armour provide a useful layer of protection that the police would not have otherwise with standard street cruisers and daily uniforms? Are the police not entitled to extra protection in such a hostile environment?
Posted on 8/19/14 at 1:33 pm to jbgleason
That's not a gotcha, it is an extreme outlier. Just because .000000001 percent of issues may require a humvee that can take a RPG to the side doesn't mean you NEED it.
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