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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Posted on 8/7/24 at 1:08 pm to
Posted by VolSquatch
First Coast
Member since Sep 2023
8364 posts
Posted on 8/7/24 at 1:08 pm to
quote:

Clearly yes? I have to disagree.



If you disagree with the statement that territorial gains are good for Russia's prospects then nothing they do will be good for them in your view anyway
Posted by GOP_Tiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2005
20967 posts
Posted on 8/7/24 at 1:11 pm to
quote:

JUST IN: Ukraine did not give the U.S. advance notification that they were going into Kurst, per two U.S. officials.


So impolite of Ukraine not to announce its offensive in the NY Times or Washington Post. War is becoming so undignified.
Posted by GOP_Tiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2005
20967 posts
Posted on 8/7/24 at 1:14 pm to
quote:


If you disagree with the statement that territorial gains are good for Russia's prospects then nothing they do will be good for them in your view anyway


Those gains don't come without significant costs in men and equipment. Every day that Russia attacks in the Donbas represents a deeper and longer economic depression in Russia at the end of the war, and a weaker military that will need to be completely rebuilt.
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
42606 posts
Posted on 8/7/24 at 1:15 pm to
quote:

Occupied territory swap?


It sounds to me that Ukraine did a whole lot more than just 30 square miles a day.
Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3945 posts
Posted on 8/7/24 at 1:15 pm to
quote:

But seizing and holding territories are two completely different tasks, so history will put everything in its place.



Are they selectively applying this to Ukraine, but not Russia?

quote:

quote:
JUST IN: Ukraine did not give the U.S. advance notification that they were going into Kurst, per two U.S. officials.



Plausible deniability.

What's being exploited here is that the Russians cannot retake territory in any manner except shelling it to rubble. So they will have to shell their own towns to rubble. Or send their meat wave attacks... inside Russia, with Russian civilians witnessing it.

Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3945 posts
Posted on 8/7/24 at 1:18 pm to
quote:


lol


quote:

But seizing and holding territories are two completely different tasks, so history will put everything in its place.


Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3945 posts
Posted on 8/7/24 at 1:23 pm to
I mean... Russia is being invaded by a smaller neighbor... that's a very big fricking deal.

This torpedoes the "Almighty Putin" internal image... he can't even protect his own people.
Posted by GOP_Tiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2005
20967 posts
Posted on 8/7/24 at 1:25 pm to
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
42606 posts
Posted on 8/7/24 at 1:26 pm to
quote:

If you disagree with the statement that territorial gains are good for Russia's prospects then nothing they do will be good for them in your view anyway


I’m not saying it’s good, but I don’t think they are getting a good enough return on their investment.

A little analogy. If I give you a million dollars to invest and I tell you to grow your best egg and you put it in a MM account and make 2% after two years. That’s good.

If I gave your brother the same amount and he put it in a mutual fund tied to the S&P and he made 10% that would be good too and a whole lot better.

If I gave your sister the same amount and she invested it in some risky equities and she made 18% at first, lost 15%, and is now is clawing back a very small percentage a week is that good? Yes, but it’s not without a ton of risk.

I submit to you that Russia has invested a lot of capital and while they have something positive to show for it; I don’t see a path to stability and long term growth.
Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3945 posts
Posted on 8/7/24 at 1:29 pm to
Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3945 posts
Posted on 8/7/24 at 1:38 pm to
Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3945 posts
Posted on 8/7/24 at 1:50 pm to
Good thread to read down...

"On August 2, a Russian sabotage and reconnaissance group was completely wiped out, the bodies were shown in Ukrainian [Telegram channels], but the understanding that the fighters had run into a group preparing an invasion, not a special force, did not come."

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Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
42606 posts
Posted on 8/7/24 at 1:54 pm to
Why so many empty chairs???! Hmmmmmm
Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3945 posts
Posted on 8/7/24 at 1:57 pm to
An unfortunate series of window and tea mishaps
Posted by cypher
Member since Sep 2014
5645 posts
Posted on 8/7/24 at 2:09 pm to
Posted by Auburn1968
NYC
Member since Mar 2019
26469 posts
Posted on 8/7/24 at 2:11 pm to
quote:

What's being exploited here is that the Russians cannot retake territory in any manner except shelling it to rubble. So they will have to shell their own towns to rubble. Or send their meat wave attacks... inside Russia, with Russian civilians witnessing it.


That's a clever tactic and a possible bargaining chip for the future. If Putin wants to take it back, he will also have to pull troops from other areas of the front.
Posted by VolSquatch
First Coast
Member since Sep 2023
8364 posts
Posted on 8/7/24 at 3:09 pm to
quote:

I’m not saying it’s good, but I don’t think they are getting a good enough return on their investment.


I am assuming until its proven otherwise (which is entirely possible) that Russia is aware of the costs and knows what kind of usage it can maintain for as long as it believes the conflict will last.

So we don't even really disagree entirely.... the gains are definitely costing the Russians. But I am assuming they are more aware of their capabilities and capacity (and when this thing might wrap up) than we are. That could absolutely prove to be incorrect and they just run out of people and or stuff and have to go home empty-handed, I'm just stating how I see it today.
Posted by VolSquatch
First Coast
Member since Sep 2023
8364 posts
Posted on 8/7/24 at 3:14 pm to
quote:

Every day that Russia attacks in the Donbas represents a deeper and longer economic depression in Russia at the end of the war, and a weaker military that will need to be completely rebuilt.


That brings me back to a point I made a while back though, if/when Russia does rebuild their military and economy they will likely tie those two things together.. investing in factories to supply themselves and other geopolitical ne'er do wells with more modern equipment. It might take half a century to do it, but then you've got who knows what kind of leader at the helm of a revamped military that isn't pulling broken down old crap from storage and refurbishing it in order to use it. That's not necessarily a prediction, just a potential outcome I see.
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
42606 posts
Posted on 8/7/24 at 3:25 pm to
quote:

I am assuming until its proven otherwise (which is entirely possible) that Russia is aware of the costs and knows what kind of usage it can maintain for as long as it believes the conflict will last.

So we don't even really disagree entirely.... the gains are definitely costing the Russians. But I am assuming they are more aware of their capabilities and capacity (and when this thing might wrap up) than we are. That could absolutely prove to be incorrect and they just run out of people and or stuff and have to go home empty-handed, I'm just stating how I see it today.


I believe they miscalculated. That’s where we disagree.

I believe that they had no idea Ukraine could survive their initial attack, and had no idea the amount of capital the West would then invest to help them.

After that they have gone an alternate route which is proving to be very costly and had the potential of undermining their govt.
Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3945 posts
Posted on 8/7/24 at 4:30 pm to
quote:

if/when Russia does rebuild...


quote:

It might take half a century to do it...


Business Insider: Almost half of top foreign policy experts think Russia will become a failed state or break up by 2033

Demographics... there won't be enough Russians in half a century to do anything...
This post was edited on 8/7/24 at 4:32 pm
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