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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Posted on 7/8/24 at 10:23 am to
Posted by REG861
Ocelot, Iowa
Member since Oct 2011
38160 posts
Posted on 7/8/24 at 10:23 am to
quote:

what is the endgame for Russia in this war and will it ever end?


Originally it was to conquer and subsume the entire country. That obviously isn’t happening now so the “peace” plan offered recently by Putin evidences the new end game. Basically keep what they have now , plus ridiculously demand Ukraine hand over a few major cities Russia doesn’t even possess. Kharkiv; Odessa, etc. of course in the long run Putin has every intention of trying to re- up and conquer Ukraine through whatever machinations he can, but that’s not realistic in the short term through purely military means.
Posted by sta4ever
Member since Aug 2014
17665 posts
Posted on 7/8/24 at 10:32 am to
quote:

what is the endgame for Russia in this war and will it ever end?


Living space.
Posted by Auburn1968
NYC
Member since Mar 2019
26493 posts
Posted on 7/8/24 at 10:35 am to
Russia's Looming Serious Tank Shortage - Tank Count Using Latest Bought Satellite Imagery

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWCEZUQtUwE
Posted by VolSquatch
First Coast
Member since Sep 2023
8364 posts
Posted on 7/8/24 at 10:43 am to
quote:

Originally it was to conquer and subsume the entire country. That obviously isn’t happening now so the “peace” plan offered recently by Putin evidences the new end game. Basically keep what they have now , plus ridiculously demand Ukraine hand over a few major cities Russia doesn’t even possess. Kharkiv; Odessa, etc.


Ukraine "talking them down" from both of those cities to one or even neither of them would be seen publicly as a victory for them. Russia holding the territory they gained and Ukraine recognizing it as Russian would be a win for them publicly. I'm sure Russia would take both if Ukraine agreed, but feels like Russia gave Ukraine some wiggle room while still keeping what they already have occupied.
Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3947 posts
Posted on 7/8/24 at 10:46 am to
quote:

You are not wrong. The Enlightenment basically skipped over Russia. There have certainly been many great Russian artists and individual thinkers but collectively the country has never taken that leap forward. That’s why people like Lima Whiskey love it. It represented this atavistic ideal of a society “uncorrupted” by western liberal ideas of individualism and modernity. And I don’t mean liberalism like today’s Columbia university, I mean liberalism like the idea of individual freedom versus the collectivism of a theocracy or subservience to a monarchy.



The Russians I know (ex-pats, people here on work visas trying to become naturalized, and some poor souls who had to return during the COVID shutdown and got trapped there) are academics, artists, orchestral musicians and brilliant, modern, and Westernized people... but they say the same thing you're saying here about their country.

There's a quote by Chekhov or somebody about how "The Russian people will always be slaves as long as they retain the mentality of slaves." They went from Tsarist Feudalism to Communism to a Kleptocratic PetroState. There has not been another mentality that wasn't punished in all these systems.
Posted by LSUPilot07
Member since Feb 2022
8606 posts
Posted on 7/8/24 at 10:47 am to
That’s just absolutely horrible and a new low for Russia when I honestly didn’t think it was possible for it to happen. A children’s hospital? That goes beyond even a general civilian target which is terrible enough but they decide they need to kill sick kids. Seeing those photos of the kids with cancer being forced to get chemo treatments outside in the summer heat is heartbreaking. It’s funny when things like this happen you sure don’t see any frickstick Putin fanboys around much. Hard to put any type of spin on something that horrendous.
Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3947 posts
Posted on 7/8/24 at 10:51 am to
quote:

what is the endgame for Russia in this war and will it ever end?


At this point, bomb and shell Ukraine into rubble, inch my inch... make it an uninhabitable wasteland that its citizens have to flee, and park some tanks and missiles and troops in it, then move into Moldova...
Posted by CitizenK
BR
Member since Aug 2019
15748 posts
Posted on 7/8/24 at 10:51 am to
quote:

Russia gave Ukraine some wiggle room while still keeping what they already have occupied.


Not at all. Russia proposal at the talks in Turkey were to keep oblasts including unoccupied territory and demilitarization just for a ceasefire to begin talks. Only Syria and North Korea supported anything other than restoring ALL occupied territory to Ukraine. China didn't support. Iran didn't support it.

Feels mean nothing the facts say the opposite
Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3947 posts
Posted on 7/8/24 at 10:55 am to
quote:

Russia's Looming Serious Tank Shortage - Tank Count Using Latest Bought Satellite Imagery

LINK


just to point out someone shared this a few days ago... but yeah
Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3947 posts
Posted on 7/8/24 at 11:18 am to
Aviation guys, correct me if I'm wrong here, but this can't be a good sign, right?

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Posted by PJinAtl
Atlanta
Member since Nov 2007
14452 posts
Posted on 7/8/24 at 12:06 pm to
quote:

quote:

what is the endgame for Russia in this war



We have been asking the Russian troll farm bots (Sir Winston, Lima Whiskey, and others) this question for the past two years. No one knows.

Plan A was to sponsor a civil war in 2014 that would lead to a popular uprising and the overthrow of the electred government in Kiev. Failure.

Plan B was the full invasion, which was supposed to capture Kiev and install a puppet government. Failure.

Plan C was to control the Black Sea and choke off grain exports that would set off an international food crisis and place presure on Ukraine to submit. And to convince a divided US congress to stop sending aid. Failure

Plan D was a grinding advance across eastern Ukraine in the summer of 2022 to capture 4 complete Oblasts and their capitals. Then sue for a peace which would turn Ukraine into a rump state without the ability to export commoditiies or field a military, or join the EU, or join any defensive alliances. Failure.

Plan E seems to be a war of attrition using Iranian and North Korean arms to buy time for the US election and hopefully get a compromised US president who will force Ukraine to take some sort of face saving deal for both sides. This one has yet to play out.


I'll add a Plan F that seems to be working pretty well.
A) Embarrass NATO/the west by not being driven back/defeated by all of the weapons systems flowing into Ukrainian hands. Makes one rethink how well NATO would hold up in a face to face fight with Russian.
B) Impact the west (especially American) economy by sending billions of dollars in weapons/supplies/support to Ukraine that could have been used in other places.
Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3947 posts
Posted on 7/8/24 at 12:16 pm to
I know some here laugh off the "plug that gaps/geographical defense" reasoning that has driven every Russia leader EVER in history...

but I think it is the thing.

Russia is facing a demographic collapse and that means dwindling supplies of military-age men.

Also, if Putin did not realize his military was a paper tiger at best and a completely incompetent and corrupt shitshow at worst, he's aware of it now...

Russian leaders have always seen the West, and its bordering western neighbors, and later NATO, as aggressors towards Russia. Putin himself is highly paranoid so he takes that to extremes.

So, faced with a military that is not a peer to Western or NATO armies, and with fewer and fewer fighting-age men, that just makes the "close the gaps" thing even more desperately imperative. The Russian military - especially an ever smaller and smaller one, since the defense has always just been throwing bodies at the enemy - could not protect the wide, expansive flat Eastern European plain - devoid of any natural barriers like mountains or rivers - from movements straight to capture Moscow. So that makes them desperate to push outward to physical barriers where they could mount their limited defensive capability only in the gaps.

Of course, no one wants to invade Russia, except maybe China on the other end... but you have to think like a Russian... "of course they want to invade us. We're the center of civilization and the prize of the world!"

A great, in depth explanation of all of this warning in 2016 that there was more to come from Russia in Ukraine, and why:

FORBES 2016: "10 Maps That Explain Russia's Strategy"

I saw Peter Zeihan on Rogan's show the other day (it was recently posted but seemed like it was from months ago) and while nothing he said will be a surprise to anybody following this thread, Rogan reacted to everything like "Dude... Wow... Oh my God... Whoa..."

As Zeihan summed up about Russia: "there is no way for them to feel secure - and this is Russia the State, not just Putin - without them occupying or controlling Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, half of Poland, Belarus, Slovakia, Hungary, Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Kyrgyzstan... and that is not compatible with the modern world, and even if Russia had the military might to storm into those countries and reclaim them immediately after the Soviet Union fell apart, they could not afford to control them all, financially, which is why the Soviet Union fell apart in the first place. So, there just is no way the Russian state can be satisfied. But the bright spot is that the Russian ethnicity will be pretty much extinct in 20 years, anyway..."



This post was edited on 7/8/24 at 12:29 pm
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
42628 posts
Posted on 7/8/24 at 12:17 pm to
quote:

ng pretty well. A) Embarrass NATO/the west by not being driven back/defeated by all of the weapons systems flowing into Ukrainian hands. Makes one rethink how well NATO would hold up in a face to face fight with Russian.

Actually the Russian special operation has reinvigorated NATO. It has become more relevant, it’s gained members, and it has increased their spending on defense.

And Russia on the other hand has not done very well. They have been stymied and their blitzkrieg has become more like WWI than WWII. Their weapon systems and tactics have been lacking and their status in the world has been lowered.

This post was edited on 7/8/24 at 1:40 pm
Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3947 posts
Posted on 7/8/24 at 12:21 pm to
quote:

I'll add a Plan F that seems to be working pretty well.
A) Embarrass NATO/the west by not being driven back/defeated by all of the weapons systems flowing into Ukrainian hands. Makes one rethink how well NATO would hold up in a face to face fight with Russian.
B) Impact the west (especially American) economy by sending billions of dollars in weapons/supplies/support to Ukraine that could have been used in other places.


A) you think "the 2nd strongest military in the world" not being able to roll over a much weaker enemy before western weapons ever arrived, and especially not now, is somehow an "embarrassment to the West and NATO? Au contraire.

B) We would've had to spend money disposing of the arms we're sending to Ukraine, which were paid for long ago. And that "money," were it actual cash, would not have been spent anywhere else for the same reasons it wasn't spent anywhere else prior to February 2022...

so nice COPE, but nah
Posted by Teddy Ruxpin
Member since Oct 2006
40857 posts
Posted on 7/8/24 at 12:26 pm to
quote:

That's interesting, since it includes groups like France Unbowed (LFI)


Jean-Luc Melenchon seems like quite the nasty guy himself. Supported Russia's annexation of Crimea, amongst other things.
Posted by CitizenK
BR
Member since Aug 2019
15748 posts
Posted on 7/8/24 at 12:29 pm to
quote:

Jean-Luc Melenchon seems like quite the nasty guy himself. Supported Russia's annexation of Crimea, amongst other things.


France is about France and doesn't give a hoot about anyone else. It took in lots of immigrants especially in the 1990's because it didn't have enough workers for a booming economy.

Everything is unionized in France, even farmers
This post was edited on 7/8/24 at 12:31 pm
Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3947 posts
Posted on 7/8/24 at 12:31 pm to
I would add something else...

Nuclear countries aren't usually so paranoid about being invaded, right?

Does that make you wonder, like me, if that's telling as to the actual state of the Russian Nuclear Arsenal?
This post was edited on 7/8/24 at 12:32 pm
Posted by VolSquatch
First Coast
Member since Sep 2023
8364 posts
Posted on 7/8/24 at 12:45 pm to
quote:

Russia proposal at the talks in Turkey were to keep oblasts including unoccupied territory and demilitarization just for a ceasefire to begin talks.


And obviously we are at a different moment in time now. And the talks in Turkey point is funny since what actually happened at those talks gets changed by both media and some on this board based on what would best support 'the narrative' currently.

quote:

Feels mean nothing the facts say the opposite



Facts are few and far between here.
Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3947 posts
Posted on 7/8/24 at 12:57 pm to
quote:

Jean-Luc Melenchon seems like quite the nasty guy himself. Supported Russia's annexation of Crimea, amongst other things.


He is a bit extreme in some ways, and he's actually a Centrist compared to the Communists who are now part of the Left Coalition... Parliamentary systems tend to allow extremes to exist and prosper to an extent and if you're outnumbered and have no actual power why would you ever have to reign things in on your rhetoric? You just serve as a big middle finger to the system for some.

But Le Pen has unified The Center and The Left. They're not used to compromising - at all or with each other - but they have to get used to it or accept that they're helping her eventually take power.

There's an infamous Irish EU parliamentary rep who'd been there forever, always said awful things and took outrageous positions, and this time he was defeated soundly, which surprised people, especially as the trend was for extremists everywhere else to gain power.

An Irish poster on X said "You have to understand the only Irish political position - and the Scots join us in this - is 'whatever the English want we want the opposite, and whatever makes them angry, outraged, and insane we want to say on the record!' The thing is... they've taken the fun out of that by screwing themselves so bad with Brexit, and, I mean, we're not monsters... we don't need to kick them when they're on the ground. So his behavior isn't necessary any longer."
Posted by REG861
Ocelot, Iowa
Member since Oct 2011
38160 posts
Posted on 7/8/24 at 1:34 pm to
quote:

He is a bit extreme in some ways, and he's actually a Centrist compared to the Communists who are now part of the Left Coalitio


I’m not going to pretend to be very knowledgeable about the shitshow that is French politics but Melenchon seems like a tankie. The Pyrrhic victory the center left coalition is celebrating will be short lived and things are going to get ugly real fast.
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