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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Posted on 6/7/24 at 11:26 am to
Posted by VolSquatch
First Coast
Member since Sep 2023
8467 posts
Posted on 6/7/24 at 11:26 am to
quote:

You can take the numbers provided by Putin, and look at numbers provided by Ukraine, and look at independent numbers; and draw your own conclusions.

Are Putin’s Ukrainian numbers in line with the numbers provided by other sources?

Are Putin’s Russian numbers in line with the numbers provided by other sources?



I am generally of the opinion that numbers the public has access to during an active conflict are of little to no use in drawing concrete opinions. I think this is especially true during the new age of social media, where your average person has so much more access to media (and also propaganda) from both sides than in the past.

Let me know what they say 5 years after its over, whatever it being 'over' looks like.
Posted by Lima Whiskey
Member since Apr 2013
22594 posts
Posted on 6/7/24 at 11:28 am to
quote:

Remember, the attacker generally needs more men, guns and bullets than the defenders. Also in this case the attackers have to resupply in greater numbers and they have to protect their supply lines and their conquered territories.



The Russians have shorter supply lines, and an easier time keeping their forces supplied. It's one of their key advantages fighting where they are.
Posted by GOP_Tiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2005
21074 posts
Posted on 6/7/24 at 11:29 am to
quote:

Do you not think there is going to be some skew there? We get lots of footage from Ukraine, not as much from Russia.



I think that units on both sides brag equally about equipment kills. And I disagree that Russian units don't put out tons of footage.

quote:

You don't think they would be going to the table now (or preparing to in the next 3-ish months) if this were true? If that is accurate their position will only get worse, and they have to know that. Unless they are counting on Trump winning and rug-pulling US support


1) I think that Putin has continued to believe the hogwash that his generals tell him, and he thinks that his recent shakeup of Shoigu, Gerasimov, etc. will fix things.

2) I also think that we saw the first "peace talks" trial balloon floated a couple of weeks ago.

3) Russia does think that Trump will win and bail them out. I think that their confidence is misplaced, but you can listen to excerpts from the Skabeyeva and Solovyov shows and see that it's there.

4) Ukraine isn't likely to agree to less than the 2021 borders, and Putin can't agree to that without a coup, so no, he has no real reason to negotiate right now, regardless of how weak his position is.
Posted by RuLSU
Chicago, IL
Member since Nov 2007
8131 posts
Posted on 6/7/24 at 11:36 am to
quote:

The Russians have shorter supply lines, and an easier time keeping their forces supplied. It's one of their key advantages fighting where they are.




Amazing, they have all these advantages and yet can't advance against a country they've supposedly "demilitarized" multiple times.
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
42811 posts
Posted on 6/7/24 at 11:37 am to
quote:

I am generally of the opinion that numbers the public has access to during an active conflict are of little to no use in drawing concrete opinions


So when Putin made those comments do you believe he was exaggerating Russian losses in order to make Ukraine’s losses seem greater?

That’s the question.

FWIW, I agree with you that there is a ton of propaganda out there and it’s easy to pick and choose according to which side you want to win. But it appears Putin’s comments justified numbers we have been getting.
Posted by VolSquatch
First Coast
Member since Sep 2023
8467 posts
Posted on 6/7/24 at 11:41 am to
quote:

And I disagree that Russian units don't put out tons of footage.


In my experience I see a lot more Ukraine footage, but could be the algorithm. I'm not saying the Russian stuff isn't there in abundance, just doesn't seem to be quite as much as there is for Ukraine.

quote:

1) I think that Putin has continued to believe the hogwash that his generals tell him, and he thinks that his recent shakeup of Shoigu, Gerasimov, etc. will fix things.


Maybe. But the generals wouldn't be told they were about to run out of money even if it were true.

quote:

3) Russia does think that Trump will win and bail them out. I think that their confidence is misplaced, but you can listen to excerpts from the Skabeyeva and Solovyov shows and see that it's ther


I'm sure they think he will help them, but outright win them the war? IDK. Europe (rightfully) cares a lot about this. I think they will try to collectively replace the US's contribution in aggregate should we rug-pull Ukraine. Will they be able to? Who knows. I'm sure we would sell Europe weapons that they would then give to Ukraine even in a situation where we turn off the aid faucet.
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
42811 posts
Posted on 6/7/24 at 11:43 am to
quote:

The Russians have shorter supply lines, and an easier time keeping their forces supplied. It's one of their key advantages fighting where they are.


It’s obvious to most that Crimea is getting more and more exposed every day. It’s kind of hanging out there.

Now with Biden green lighting attacks inside of Russia things will get even tougher.

Looking at a map, I can’t see where the front is closer to Russian supply hubs than Ukrainian supply hubs; however, I don’t have the inside scoop like you do.
Posted by VolSquatch
First Coast
Member since Sep 2023
8467 posts
Posted on 6/7/24 at 11:45 am to
quote:

So when Putin made those comments do you believe he was exaggerating Russian losses in order to make Ukraine’s losses seem greater?

That’s the question.



I don't know either way. You can look at it that way. You can look at it and think hes telling the truth (highly doubtful, but it isn't a totally impossibility). You can also look at it as him spitballing on numbers either way, so throwing some bullshite number for Ukraine out there and then throwing in the "its FIVE times more than we are losing" is just more bullshitting.

I lean toward the last one because I don't think you're going to that carefully craft some narrative regarding false numbers anyway, but since I think the numbers are mostly bullshite I'm not particularly passionate about any one theory.
This post was edited on 6/7/24 at 11:47 am
Posted by VolSquatch
First Coast
Member since Sep 2023
8467 posts
Posted on 6/7/24 at 11:49 am to
quote:

It’s obvious to most that Crimea is getting more and more exposed every day. It’s kind of hanging out there.


I think Ukraine is finally doing what they should have been doing from the beginning... threaten what is strategically important to Russia. I think Crimea is a huge driver in all of this, definitely the most important piece of ground to them at the very least.

They don't have to counterattack and push back then entire front. They just have to do it at Crimea. If it were in danger of falling, I think Russia would be clamoring for the negotiating table.
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
42811 posts
Posted on 6/7/24 at 11:51 am to
quote:

but since I think the numbers are mostly bullshite I'm not particularly passionate about any one theory.


I agree.

I think the big thing is that despite all this talk of Russia grinding down Ukraine by employing more and more material into the war; they are accomplishing very little despite their attempts for break throughs.
Posted by TigersSEC2010
Warren, Michigan
Member since Jan 2010
38506 posts
Posted on 6/7/24 at 12:14 pm to
quote:

There is no doubt Ukraine has had issues in personnel, weapons and ammo.

But it also appears that Russia has also because despite optimistic predictions some have provided here, Russia has accomplished very little.


The greatest shock of this war is simply how inept Russia’s combat operations have been. On paper, they should’ve rolled Ukraine and Zelenskyy is hiding out in Poland somewhere. I’m not a military expert, but I have to believe if they had the ability to roll Ukraine they would’ve committed the additional personnel and equipment needed, and taken care of business by now.

One question I always have but cannot find an answer for is how many of the guys who were fighting on Day 1 are still alive and fighting. I would think that number is very small. Every day you’re out there dramatically increases the chance of a drone or artillery strike taking you out:
Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3980 posts
Posted on 6/7/24 at 12:19 pm to
quote:

Anybody got a ilnk to the quote where Putin makes that statement?



Anybody got a link to where anybody said Putin made that statement?


Posted by mattfromnj
New Jersey
Member since Mar 2020
604 posts
Posted on 6/7/24 at 12:35 pm to
quote:

The greatest shock of this war is simply how inept Russia’s combat operations have been. On paper, they should’ve rolled Ukraine and Zelenskyy is hiding out in Poland somewhere. I’m not a military expert, but I have to believe if they had the ability to roll Ukraine they would’ve committed the additional personnel and equipment needed, and taken care of business by now.



In fairness to Russia the Ukr army in 2022 was one of the largest and certainly the most battle tested in Europe from fighting the separatists in the east since 2014. They'd also been given a lot of NATO training and even equipment during that time and reorganized a lot of their leadership. They were very good. I think Russia thought they were the same army they'd seen in 2014-2015.

Russia seems to struggle with logistics. Remember during the invasion all those abandoned tanks? They're awful at maintenance and logistics. There were Russian soldiers looting stores because they'd run out of food less than a week into the invasion.

Fwiw the experts I've seen actually said there was nothing really wrong with Russia's plan for invasion, it just didn't work. The Ukrainians put up a good defense in depth, they contested the airfields and didn't allow the Russians to take them, they stayed back and ambushed all the supply convoys, etc. A lot of what's happened in Ukraine hasn't been about Russia doing anything wrong it's just that Ukraine is doing well with what they have.

The casualties on both sides are massive. To give one hint there was a Russian milblogger (a very popular one who goes on tv there) who said that between February and September of 2022 the VDV (Russia's airborne) lost 60% of its forces killed, wounded or captured. Both sides are taking losses the US hasn't experienced since ww2 or the very beginning of Korea, its horrific.

Posted by Lima Whiskey
Member since Apr 2013
22594 posts
Posted on 6/7/24 at 12:57 pm to
quote:

It’s obvious to most that Crimea is getting more and more exposed every day. It’s kind of hanging out there.



They're keeping it supplied via road and rail through Kherson. It's not an issue.
Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3980 posts
Posted on 6/7/24 at 1:03 pm to
quote:

For a long time in this thread, the consensus was that a long war favored Russia. I now think that the evidence is clear that the reverse is true. If the G7 is able to agree on using Russian assets to provide Ukraine with a $50 billion advance on the interest from those investments, then I will have no doubts about an eventual Ukrainian victory in the conflict.


From the start of this, Zeihan has repeatedly said "Russia is fighting for space, we are fighting for time." The "time" being important because Russia will run out of young men (only 8 million men in their 20s at the start of this, and a mass exodus by anybody who could leave from Moscow and St. Petersberg as it kicked off) and equipment and the economy will collapse... and Russia will be neutralized. He also points out this is not just Putin, though he's the most aggressive leader they've had in a while... even Yeltsin was launching these wars in his term, because Russia was invaded so much in history... and ironically, NATO and the EU have stopped invasions between European countries even being practical. If they'd joined that they'd be in better shape in every way, but their corruption would've been exposed and would need to be cleaned up, and they won't go for that...
Posted by Lima Whiskey
Member since Apr 2013
22594 posts
Posted on 6/7/24 at 1:16 pm to
quote:

Those soldiers are disproportionately from out in the poor rural areas of Russia... Siberia and the Far East, and are disproportionately ethnic minority groups. The people of Moscow and St. Petersberg very much do not care about them one bit in any way... are probably happy they're being "cleansed" out of Russian society.


Ethnic Russians makeup more than 80% of the army IIRC.



I looked at the math a couple of months ago, comparing population figures to these numbers. Russians were slightly overrepresented. Chechens are under represented.
Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3980 posts
Posted on 6/7/24 at 1:19 pm to
quote:

China able to conquer Siberia


I'm not sure China will necessarily be in the position to bother with that in a couple of years...
Posted by Lima Whiskey
Member since Apr 2013
22594 posts
Posted on 6/7/24 at 1:21 pm to
quote:

From the start of this, Zeihan has repeatedly said "Russia is fighting for space, we are fighting for time."


That's not true, the Russians are fighting like time doesn't matter. Their plan shows patience, they went on the defensive accepting what has amounted to an almost two year pause, while they expanded the army, and built up their industry. And patience is one of the defining virtues of the Russian system.
Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3980 posts
Posted on 6/7/24 at 1:25 pm to
quote:

The short is the Putin didn't have a Plan B. He started this thing. And he has no idea how to end it.


Putin was told his military was top notch, well-trained and equipped and the equal of NATO forces, while Ukraine was weak and would be obliterated if they dared resist... and also, that the millions of dollars they'd pumped into Psy Ops to convince the Ukrainian people that they are Russians and should welcome him as a Liberator had been extremely effective.

The classic "Dictator's Dilemma"... when you throw anybody with bad news out of a window nobody will tell you the truth if it is bad news. This also allows corruption to go haywire...
Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3980 posts
Posted on 6/7/24 at 1:32 pm to
quote:

I think Russia would be clamoring for the negotiating table.


The dream of a reasonable and faithfully negotiating Russia... ah...
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