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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 7/7/23 at 9:45 pm to StormyMcMan
Posted on 7/7/23 at 9:45 pm to StormyMcMan
Are Russians surrendering wanting some of this?
LINK
LINK
Posted on 7/7/23 at 9:51 pm to CitizenK
ISW Update
quote:
Key Takeaways:
Ukrainian forces made tactically significant gains in the Bakhmut area and continued counteroffensive operations in at least three other sectors of the front on July 7.
Russian forces have reportedly committed almost the entirety of the Russian Eastern Grouping of Forces to southern Ukraine.
The deployment of almost the entirety of the Russian Eastern Grouping of Forces and extensive SMD elements to the frontline in southern Ukraine suggests that Russian defenses in southern Ukraine may be brittle.
Russia temporarily disconnected at least partially from the global internet during a test of its “sovereign internet” system overnight on July 4-5.
Russian forces conducted a series of missile and drone strikes against rear areas in Ukraine on June 6 to 7.
Russian and Ukrainian forces continued ground attacks along the Kharkiv-Luhansk Oblast border. Ukrainian forces made tactically significant gains in the Bakhmut area between July 6-7.
Russian and Ukrainian forces conducted ground attacks in western Donetsk Oblast.
Russian sources claimed that Ukrainian forces launched a renewed wave of counterattacks in western Zaporizhia Oblast on July 7.
The Russian occupation of the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant (ZNPP) continues to restrict international monitors’ access to the facility.
The Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) reportedly drafted a law that would expand the list of gross disciplinary offenses within the Russian Armed Forces.
Russian authorities continue to portray themselves as responsible custodians of Ukrainian children in an effort to discredit Ukraine while continuing to forcibly deport Ukrainian children to Russia.
A Belarusian military official stated that Wagner Group forces have not yet decided to deploy to Belarus while giving a press tour of the speculated Wagner Group base in Asipovichy on July 7.
Posted on 7/7/23 at 10:02 pm to StormyMcMan
quote:
Just quoting to point out that Finland wasn't invaded for joining NATO so that whole argument is kinda weak at best
Nah, that whole argument is just flat out ridiculous. Russia already had direct multiple borders with NATO members; likewise, Russia has never had the right to determine the free association choices of Ukraine.
They don't like NATO membership for the Ukraine? They should play a game of hide and go frick themselves. They don't get to determine it. They want to start a war over that, that's Russia's fault, and no one else's.
Posted on 7/7/23 at 11:22 pm to BoardReader
quote:
They don't like NATO membership for the Ukraine? They should play a game of hide and go frick themselves. They don't get to determine it. They want to start a war over that, that's Russia's fault, and no one else's.

Posted on 7/7/23 at 11:26 pm to Tigris
quote:
I would posit that there is no difference at all. When you demonstrate that you will give in to nuclear blackmail to a major power, all the minor powers will take notice and follow suit.
Russia can destroy human civilization. Smaller powers can only destroy a couple cities.
Posted on 7/7/23 at 11:35 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:Smaller powers like Pakistan and India lobbing nukes at each other? That could just as easily lead to a global catastrophe.
Smaller powers can only destroy a couple cities.
Posted on 7/7/23 at 11:42 pm to northshorebamaman
Yeah but that doesn’t really have anything to do with blackmailing the US into anything.
Posted on 7/7/23 at 11:46 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:It was an example of a nuclear exchange between "minor powers" being a little less inconsequential than you're predicting. Come on man.
Yeah but that doesn’t really have anything to do with blackmailing the US into anything.

This post was edited on 7/7/23 at 11:58 pm
Posted on 7/8/23 at 12:44 am to northshorebamaman
https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1677401928056152066
quote:
Tomorrow, it will 500 days since Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
The Russians practically haven’t taken any new territory over the past 450 days
Posted on 7/8/23 at 12:57 am to Chromdome35
Some unconfirmed, but backed up by sources, reports of morale issues in the Russian ranks.
Sources linked in the twitter post
https://twitter.com/ArmedMaidan/status/1677373544672419861
Sources linked in the twitter post
https://twitter.com/ArmedMaidan/status/1677373544672419861
quote:
After heavy losses at Klishchiivka, south of Bakhmut, a Russian elite airborne brigade notorious for atrocities at Bucha was forced to make a chaotic retreat under fire, suffering more casualties, and some survivors were detained for refusing orders to immediately return to combat, Russian open-source site CIT says citing Russian reports
A powerful Ukrainian assault forced Russia's 83rd Airborne Assault Brigade to retreat on foot without an evacuation plan, only to be given "illegally issued orders" to go right back to the front, the Russian troops complained in a video appeal
Russian draftees in another unit at Klishchiivka - the 1442nd Regiment - also refused to fight after suffering heavy losses under Ukrainian fire while being sent into combat without ammunition, their relatives said in an appeal. Some of the refuseniks were reportedly being held in a pit
The Russian airborne troops said they were "fraudulently" sent to Klishchiivka, where they spent 15 days under mortar fire without Russian artillery or air support or communications (which had been shut down by Ukrainian electronic warfare)
Meanwhile, Ukrainian drones reportedly zipped around freely overhead underhindered by Russian electronic warfare
After refusing to fight, they said they were threatened with being forced to join a "Storm-Z" unit of ex-convicts, notorious for being deployed in Russia's virtually suicidal so-called "meat assaults"
quote:
·After heavy losses at Klishchiivka, south of Bakhmut, a Russian elite airborne brigade notorious for atrocities at Bucha was forced to make a chaotic retreat under fire, suffering more casualties, and some survivors were detained for refusing orders to immediately return to… Show more
????Ukraine Resists Russian Genocide... Yeah Again
@ArmedMaidan
Following bad losses from Ukraine's counteroffensive at Novodarivka in Zaporizhya (just 40 remain of their 106-man company), Russia's 394th Regiment troops refuse orders to be sent back to the Novodarivka area with no artillery support or heavy equipment
They complain in a video appeal that they have to buy their own ammo, had no provisions, water or artillery support, haven't been paid since January, had no leave in 10 months, that medics have no drugs or bandages and that the wounded aren't evacuated for a long time
"We even blew up on our own mines"
LINK
Posted on 7/8/23 at 1:00 am to Chromdome35
https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1677385277080236032
quote:
Ukrainian Defenders advanced in Bakhmut direction in the southern flank. In several areas they advanced more than 1 kilometer deep. Our troops have complicated the enemy's movements to maximum extent - Hanna Maliar, Deputy Defense Minister.
Heavy combat is undergoing in Melitopol and Berdiansk direction, she added. "Our Defenders there are grinding the equipment and weapons of the enemy, destroy ammunition warehouses, hit enemy locations, diminishing the enemy's advancement and defense capabilities" - Hanna Maliar.
Posted on 7/8/23 at 2:51 am to Chromdome35
quote:
Summary for 6 – July 7, 2023 ( until 08:00 )
Front line situation
The Ukrainian offensive is at an expected pace. Fighting continues, but without much progress.
Short and to the point.
Posted on 7/8/23 at 3:03 am to Chromdome35
British Defence Intelligence
INTELLIGENCE UPDATE
UPDATE ON UKRAINE 8 July 2023
After a lull during June 2023, over the last seven days Bakhmut has again been the site of some of the most intense fighting along the front.
Ukrainian forces have made steady gains to both the north and south of the Russian-held town. Russian defenders are highly likely struggling with poor morale, a mix of disparate units and a limited ability to find and strike Ukrainian artillery.
The Russian leadership almost certainly see it as politically unacceptable to concede Bakhmut, which has a symbolic weight as one of the few Russian gains in the last 12 months. However, there are highly likely few additional reserves to commit to the sector.
INTELLIGENCE UPDATE
UPDATE ON UKRAINE 8 July 2023
After a lull during June 2023, over the last seven days Bakhmut has again been the site of some of the most intense fighting along the front.
Ukrainian forces have made steady gains to both the north and south of the Russian-held town. Russian defenders are highly likely struggling with poor morale, a mix of disparate units and a limited ability to find and strike Ukrainian artillery.
The Russian leadership almost certainly see it as politically unacceptable to concede Bakhmut, which has a symbolic weight as one of the few Russian gains in the last 12 months. However, there are highly likely few additional reserves to commit to the sector.
Posted on 7/8/23 at 3:15 am to cypher
Zelensky visits Snake Island, marks 500 days of full-scale war
by The Kyiv Independent news desk July 8, 2023 10:09 AM
President Volodymyr Zelensky marked 500 days of Russia's full-scale war on July 8 with a video filmed on Snake Island, promising that Ukraine will reclaim every part of its territory currently occupied by Russia.
Details & video
by The Kyiv Independent news desk July 8, 2023 10:09 AM
President Volodymyr Zelensky marked 500 days of Russia's full-scale war on July 8 with a video filmed on Snake Island, promising that Ukraine will reclaim every part of its territory currently occupied by Russia.
Details & video
Posted on 7/8/23 at 3:27 am to GOP_Tiger
quote:
Thinking about the cluster munitions, I think that there will be two main impacts:
1) Obviously, they will be more effective than standard rounds at helping Ukraine clear trenches, which is a significant part of the challenge that Ukraine faces right now.
The rounds promised today should be hitting Russian troops in a little over two weeks. I expect that Ukraine will be able to make faster progress once they get these shells.
2) They extend the Ukrainian offensive. So far, Ukraine has committed only a small part of its new western-armed brigades to the fight. Ukraine has lost some vehicles, but they've been replaced faster than they've been lost. In fact, Ukraine hasn't lost any Strykers at all yet, so the 32 pledged today will likely go with some Leopard 1 tanks to equip another mechanized brigade.
No, Ukraine has been taking ground slowly specifically so as not to lose men and equipment. The problem with the slow pace of the Ukrainian offensive was that Ukraine was going to run out of ammo, and the offensive would culminate.
Ukraine can now feel confident that won't happen anytime soon. Some 400,000 or so cluster rounds, when added to Ukrainian stocks, will extend the offensive by several months. Ukraine can be confident that they will continue to have the necessary ammo to attack until the mud season arrives in late fall.
By then, Abrams and GLSDB will have entered the fight. Ukraine will continue to get stronger over the next few months, while Russia continues to replace destroyed modern tanks with ancient T-55s.
Michael Kofman made a realistic assessment of the counter offensive thus far and had thoughts of a similar vein regarding how the cluster munitions will benefit the Ukrainian offensive by extending how far they can sustain operations until culmination.
quote:
A few thoughts on DPICM. Providing cluster munitions to Ukraine, at this stage, could have a significant impact beyond what other capabilities might achieve. Despite the drawbacks, unlocking this stockpile has important implications for the course of Ukraine's offensive. 1/
Ukraine's offensive is limited by the artillery ammunition available. The US, and other countries, provided a significant amount for this operation. Much of this was borrowed from South Korea. Without this ammunition it is difficult to imagine this offensive taking place. 2/
Progress has been slow, difficult, and without sustained breakthroughs thus far. While UA retains the bulk of its combat power, artillery use rate is likely higher than anticipated, especially as the past weeks have seen a largely attritional approach. 3/
Consequently, Ukraine's hardest limit is proably not manpower, or equipment, but arty ammunition. This is foremost about the numbers. Providing DPICM gives access to a sizable stockpile of artillery ammo that can alleviate the time pressure on UA operations. 4/
With DPICM the US is also in a much better position to sustain Ukraine's war effort into next year, which requires significant amounts of artillery ammunition on a monthly basis. While other capabilities may be great to have, providing DPICM may prove more impactful. 5/
While UA retains options, the offensive may culminate whenever the ammunition runs low. Extending that timeline is critical. I wont get into the debate on effectiveness vs the risks, dud rates, etc. My view is these considerations are ultimately best left for Ukraine to weigh.
I agree very much with his final point as well, that it is up to Ukraine to determine if they want to use them as they are the ones facing the risks either way.
The extension of how long Ukraine can maintain operations is likely greater than we realise since they will consume fewer rounds when clearing areas of troops with them so there is a multiplier factor to consider. Furthermore if it also enables them to clear more effectively this leads to shorter engagement times and reduced shell consumption.
Finally a couple of questions for any engineer/military types, I can google but am looking for more real world testimony:
1) How effective would cluster munitions be on clearing mined areas?
2) My understanding of the cluster munitions they are receiving is that they come with a failsafe that detonates them after several days to avoid unexploded ordinance issues - how effective is this failsafe?
Edit 2: It appears the failsafe was retrofitted in 2003 but no information on how effective or how thorough their installation was that I could find.
quote:
The base bleed mechanism reduces the submunition count to 72. Work was budgeted in 2003 to retrofit the M42/M46 grenades with self-destruct fuses to reduce the problem of "dud" submunitions that do not initially explode, but may explode later upon handling. In Vietnam they were known as "firecracker rounds" owing to the rippling detonation of submunitions over a couple of seconds.
LINK
Edit: Clarity and additional query.
This post was edited on 7/8/23 at 6:38 pm
Posted on 7/8/23 at 4:25 am to OutsideObserver
quote:
1) How effective would cluster munitions be on clearing mined areas?
2) My understanding of the cluster munitions they are receiving is that they come with a failsafe that detonates them after several days to avoid unexploded ordinance issues - how effective is this failsafe?
1. Interesting question. AFAIK there is no US SOP for using them in that manner. I don't see it being reliable but it would be better than nothing. I had never seen MCLICs use offensively (I don't ever think I even pondered the possibility) until this war so I wouldn't be surprised if the Ukrainians tried it and it might be a more effective use than I would think, it necessity is the mother of invention after all.
2. FASCAM mines use similar self-destruct mechanisms and they are supposed to be highly effective I assume it is similar with the cluster munitions but I didn't realize we had retrofitted that many with self-destruct fuzes, maybe we have. The dud rate numbers are all over the place even for US munitions. The reported dud rate for the Russian cluster munitions used in Ukraine has been reported at 40% which means a huge number of UXOs left on the ground already. One complicating issue with cluster munitions with a high dud rate is the density of duds can be high enough that setting off one can cause a ripple effect through dozens of other UXO submunitions, this was common in Vietnam. One other note regarding dud rates is it varies based on the terrain.
Posted on 7/8/23 at 7:22 am to OutsideObserver
quote:
2) My understanding of the cluster munitions they are receiving is that they come with a failsafe that detonates them after several days to avoid unexploded ordinance issues - how effective is this failsafe?
Have not seen this mentioned. I have seen it mentioned with respect to the mines that are delivered via artillery.
Posted on 7/8/23 at 7:50 am to OutsideObserver
quote:
The extension of how long Ukraine can maintain operations is likely greater than we realise since they will consume fewer rounds when clearing areas of troops with them so there is a multiplier factor to consider. Furthermore if it also enables them to clear more effectively this leads to shorter engagement times and reduced shell consumption.
I also wonder if the cluster bomb decision is responsible for the recent slower pace of Ukrainian attacks in the south. Ukraine has known that this decision was coming, and they may have slowed down a bit to wait for these cluster shells.
In contrast, the Bakhmut area doesn't face the same problems (mines and extensive fortifications), so Ukraine has been making more progress there.
In fact, there are reports this morning that Ukraine has captured the last key hill overlooking Klischiivka, which would mean that the capture of the town is imminent.
Posted on 7/8/23 at 8:07 am to Obtuse1
Politico:
Top Dems break with Biden over sending cluster bombs to Ukraine
Top Dems break with Biden over sending cluster bombs to Ukraine
quote:
Key Democratic lawmakers are breaking with President Joe Biden over the controversial decision to send cluster bombs to Ukraine, arguing that providing the weapons, which are banned by more than 120 countries, cedes the moral high ground and will end up indiscriminately killing civilians.
Top Democrats on the House Rules Committee and the panels that fund the Pentagon and State Department lashed out in rare public statements broadcasting their break with their party’s president.
“The decision by the Biden administration to transfer cluster munitions to Ukraine is unnecessary and a terrible mistake,” said Rep. Betty McCollum (D-Mo.), the ranking member of the House’s defense appropriations subcommittee. “The legacy of cluster bombs is misery, death and expensive cleanup generations after their use.”
“These weapons should be eliminated from our stockpiles, not dumped in Ukraine,” she added.
quote:
Progressive Rep. Barbara Lee (D-Calif.), the ranking member of the House panel that funds the State Department, tweeted she was “alarmed” at the move, while House Rules Committee ranking member Jim McGovern said that while he supports helping Ukraine, sending cluster bombs represents a break with NATO allies such as the U.K., France, Germany and Spain.
quote:
Still, even some more hawkish Democrats ripped the administration. Air Force veteran and House Armed Services member Chrissy Houlahan, in a statement Friday, challenged the assessment that cluster bombs would be the most effective means to back Kyiv.
“I challenge the notion that we should employ the same tactics Russia is using, blurring the lines of moral high ground,” said Houlahan, who co-chairs the bipartisan Unexploded Ordinance (UXO)/Demining Caucus.
Posted on 7/8/23 at 8:12 am to GOP_Tiger
Interesting nugget from the Post:
From elsewhere on the web:
quote:
Colin Kahl, the undersecretary of defense for policy, told reporters at the Pentagon that “five comprehensive tests,” most recently in 2020, have been conducted to ensure that the failure rate of the shells sent to Ukraine will be 2.35 percent or less. He declined to specify the variant — believed to be M864 shells first produced in 1987 — and said that “the tests themselves are classified” and cannot be made public.
From elsewhere on the web:
quote:
The M864 artillery shells contain 72 submunitions that are roughly the size of grenades, and instead of having a single impact spot, they can blanket an area larger than four football fields.
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