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July 3, 1863 - "In the center they will break..."

Posted on 7/3/26 at 11:32 am
Posted by RollTide1987
Baltimore, MD
Member since Nov 2009
71422 posts
Posted on 7/3/26 at 11:32 am
Day 3 of the Battle of Gettysburg. The most famous charge in American history - Pickett's Charge.

Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
42853 posts
Posted on 7/3/26 at 11:44 am to
Wishful thinking
Posted by BranchDawg
Flowery Branch
Member since Nov 2013
10119 posts
Posted on 7/3/26 at 11:46 am to
If Lee would’ve listened to Longstreet, none of this would’ve happened.
Posted by Obtuse1
Westside Bodymore Yo
Member since Sep 2016
30804 posts
Posted on 7/3/26 at 11:48 am to
quote:

Wishful thinking


In an unusual departure, Lee broke every one of Sun Tzu's Five Rules of the Decisive Battle that day.
Posted by RollTide1987
Baltimore, MD
Member since Nov 2009
71422 posts
Posted on 7/3/26 at 11:51 am to
quote:

In an unusual departure, Lee broke every one of Sun Tzu's Five Rules of the Decisive Battle that day.



Not so unusual when you actually study Lee's battle tactics. He had been living on the edge since he took command of the Army of Northern Virginia a year earlier. At Gettysburg he finally came up against an opposing general who was competent and not afraid of him.
Posted by theunknownknight
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2005
61133 posts
Posted on 7/3/26 at 11:52 am to
Lincoln was a tyrant in invaded the south escalating a needless war to the tune of 600,000 American deaths.
Posted by RollTide1987
Baltimore, MD
Member since Nov 2009
71422 posts
Posted on 7/3/26 at 11:56 am to
quote:

Lincoln was a tyrant in invaded the south escalating a needless war to the tune of 600,000 American deaths.



Sure. Whatever.

Anyways...what is your opinion on the actual tactics of the third day of the Battle of Gettysburg? Should Lee have cut his losses and fallen back or should he have attempted something different?

He originally wanted to keep up Longstreet's attack from Day 2 but things changed throughout the morning of July 3 which made such a want impossible.
Posted by BigAppleTiger
New York City
Member since Dec 2008
11060 posts
Posted on 7/3/26 at 11:58 am to
Posted by Obtuse1
Westside Bodymore Yo
Member since Sep 2016
30804 posts
Posted on 7/3/26 at 12:08 pm to
quote:

Not so unusual when you actually study Lee's battle tactics.


He lived for audacity and constantly sought decisive battles which was required since the longer the war went on the more likely the North was to win. However, he still was able to temper when the situation required it. The loss of Jackson was a huge blow and he had no alternative but to fight a likely unwinnable battle. He was overly aggressive at Gettysburg, but it was probably his last chance. It is arguable that if he was more of a hands-on leader or just more clear in his communication to his subordinates, he must just have been able to prevail.
Posted by RoyalAir
Detroit
Member since Dec 2012
7657 posts
Posted on 7/3/26 at 12:08 pm to
quote:

Not so unusual when you actually study Lee's battle tactics. 


As great a man as Lee was, he didn't understand the nature of the war he was fighting. Forrest did. The insurgent tactics that Forrest suggested were seen as being too ugly and profane for Lee, but had he listened, he likely would have been successful.

Also should have let Jackson take DC and negotiate a settlement when it was in play.
Posted by Bestbank Tiger
Premium Member
Member since Jan 2005
81680 posts
Posted on 7/3/26 at 12:33 pm to
It's not yet 2:00 in Gettysburg....
Posted by RollTide1987
Baltimore, MD
Member since Nov 2009
71422 posts
Posted on 7/3/26 at 12:39 pm to
quote:

The insurgent tactics that Forrest suggested were seen as being too ugly and profane for Lee, but had he listened, he likely would have been successful.


Forrest’s guerrilla-style cavalry raids were brilliant at the tactical level at disrupting supplies, capturing outposts, and harassing larger forces with speed and surprise. However, they could not win the war for the South. The Confederacy required decisive victories or foreign recognition to secure independence, which demanded conventional armies capable of defending territory, protecting slavery-based agriculture and industry, and forcing the North to the negotiating table. Raiding warfare disperses strength, invites brutal retaliation, alienates potential support, and fails to address the South’s insurmountable disadvantages in manpower, production, and logistics. It might have prolonged suffering, but it offered no realistic path to victory - only a slower, more destructive path to the same defeat.
This post was edited on 7/3/26 at 12:40 pm
Posted by Lonnie Utah
Utah!
Member since Jul 2012
34997 posts
Posted on 7/3/26 at 12:55 pm to
quote:

Lincoln was a tyrant in invaded the south escalating a needless war to the tune of 600,000 American deaths.


I hear what you're saying, but SC, including some of my direct relatives, started it...
Posted by RoyalAir
Detroit
Member since Dec 2012
7657 posts
Posted on 7/3/26 at 12:56 pm to
quote:

Raiding warfare disperses strength, invites brutal retaliation, alienates potential support, and fails to address the South’s insurmountable disadvantages in manpower, production, and logistics. 


Raiding and guerrilla campaigns are exactly what is needed when facing a superior, in number, adversary. You cannot win on the battlefield due to sheer numbers. You must cut supply lines, maroon foreign troops deep into your territory, and make the cost of war significantly more expensive for your admittedly superior adversary.

This kind of campaign is what has made Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc too expensive for the US to maintain. It also creates sympathy, which can be leveraged into support, as you can argue "we're being invaded, and we only intend to defend our territory. "

Victory may well have been impossible for a number of reasons. But it would have been the most likely chance at victory. Remember, there was a great deal of anti-war sentiment in 63 and 64 - political pressure may have existed to just let those rebels leave.

Dunno. Who's to say. But I think it's the most realistic path to victory.
Posted by RollTide1987
Baltimore, MD
Member since Nov 2009
71422 posts
Posted on 7/3/26 at 1:06 pm to
quote:

This kind of campaign is what has made Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc too expensive for the US to maintain. It also creates sympathy, which can be leveraged into support, as you can argue "we're being invaded, and we only intend to defend our territory.


You are forgetting one important detail that separates the Civil War from these other conflicts: the U.S. and C.S. shared a border. Those conflicts were struggle-fests because the stronger country did not fully mobilize and the weaker country was not seen as worth the cost because of the distances involved.

The CSA was on the same continent and part of the same country as the USA. Insurgent tactics aren't as effective because supply lines can be quickly repaired given the distances involved. For example, Forrest did a lot to hinder Grant in the early days of his Vicksburg campaign. However, he was unable to stem the tide of the Union war machine. Grant eventually was able to overcome those problems, invest Vicksburg, and successfully split the Confederacy in two.

Posted by Salviati
Member since Apr 2006
7795 posts
Posted on 7/3/26 at 1:11 pm to
I wonder whether one of the insurgents' fundamental military problems arose from one of the fundamental beliefs of their rebellion: an emphasis on dispersed control rather than central control.

The weak central command of the rebellion's individual states, departments, and regions seemed ill-suited to handle the problems facing the whole of the rebellion.

Once Grant was granted control of the various theaters, the military conclusion was written. He had no analog in the rebellion until the war was in hand.
Posted by Salviati
Member since Apr 2006
7795 posts
Posted on 7/3/26 at 1:28 pm to
The movie scene appears to show two nearly equal forces meeting for hand-to-hand combat at the end of the charge.

Does that scene accurately capture the distance that the rebels had to travel to get to the Union lines or the decimation of the rebel charge by the time the two sides met?

Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
42853 posts
Posted on 7/3/26 at 1:39 pm to
The fact is the Notth threw their reserves against the few Southern soldiers that reached the “high point” and took care of them in short order. So many of the Southern attack had been killed or wounded that there wasn’t a sufficient number of troops to really breakthrough as planned.
Posted by Jim Rockford
Member since May 2011
105597 posts
Posted on 7/3/26 at 1:41 pm to
Even if Lee had won at Gettysburg, Vicksburg surrendered the next day and sealed the South's fate.
Posted by RollTide1987
Baltimore, MD
Member since Nov 2009
71422 posts
Posted on 7/3/26 at 1:42 pm to
quote:

Does that scene accurately capture the distance that the rebels had to travel to get to the Union lines or the decimation of the rebel charge by the time the two sides met?



The scene that I posted occurs at the end of a much longer segment. The film accurately depicts the distances involved, the scene posted is just the climax of everything that led to that particular point.
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