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re: Hot take on Germany’s invasion of the USSR
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:36 pm to rmnldr
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:36 pm to rmnldr
quote:
help the Italians in Greece
People shite on the French for their collapse in June 1940, but is there a European power who proved themselves to be more inept than the Italians from 1914-1945?
I don’t know that there is. They just….lost, all the time. Even when they “beat” the Austrians eventually in WW1 along the fronts in Tyrol and Slovenia, it was after Austria collapsed and the two had been fighting over the same mountain passes for three years.
This post was edited on 2/23/25 at 2:37 pm
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:39 pm to rmnldr
quote:Not enough and not early enough in the war. Raeder, the admiral of the kriegsmarine, advocated for surface warships. It wasn’t until Donitz took over that Hitler was convinced on the UBoat strategy whole heartedly.
Are you aware of how many were built? You make it seem like the priority wasn’t on Uboats
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:39 pm to grizzlylongcut
quote:
we should not have involved ourselves in the European theater of either World War.
When Hitler declared war on us we had no choice
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:44 pm to Upperdecker
quote:
The US fails to establish itself as a super power, Europe becomes all Germany and Germany becomes the main superpower. We fight a Cold War against Germany until eventually the fight comes to our shores, and we see Americans slaughtered on our own lands. Sounds like a great take there buddy
You don’t know that for sure.
Plus, the war in Europe likely drags on for years and years killing even more Nazis and communists. Sounds like a huge win win to me.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:44 pm to sledgehammer
quote:
Not enough and not early enough in the war. Raeder, the admiral of the kriegsmarine, advocated for surface warships. It wasn’t until Donitz took over that Hitler was convinced on the UBoat strategy whole heartedly.
And the Uboats were slaughtered throughout the war. Germany’s modern battleships and cruisers scared the shite out of the British and Americans. If the Brits don’t get lucky against Bismarck then the Atlantic routes to the western approaches is cut off due to Bismarck’s presence. RAF would’ve had to divert massive resources to sink Bismarck instead of other missions. The truth is that you could’ve built hundreds of more Uboats and it wouldn’t have meant anything.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:45 pm to SteelerBravesDawg
quote:
When Hitler declared war on us we had no choice
Hitler has no way to carry out a war against us without us going over to him.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:46 pm to sledgehammer
The bigger "What if?" for me regards the Mediterranean. Instead of making the Channel Dash northwards and pigeonholing their surface assets in the North Sea and Norway; what if they ran them South past Gibralter into the Med. Scharnhorst, Gneissnau, Tirpitz plus all the other surface ships could have hooked up with the Regia Marina and shut down Royal Navy. With unfettered naval and air superiority, Malta falls. Axis resupply of Rommel is no longer problematic. If they knock out the British Eighth Army in '41 and take Egypt their fuel situation for the rest of the war is hugely eased. (I'm guessing at this point, Churchill acquiesces and sues for peace to save the Empire). If Hitler didn't have such a limited strategic outlook, the first primary stipulation with France should have been to turn their entire navy over to the Kriegsmarine. That would have made the Afrika Korps campaign even easier.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:48 pm to rmnldr
quote:
They didn’t attack in the winter of ‘41
The Battle of Moscow was fought in the fall and winter of 1941. I know Barbarossa was launched in June. Bypass Moscow altogether and use the full tip of the spear to pierce into the Caucuses is my point.
All this is hypothetical if you haven’t caught on.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:55 pm to rmnldr
quote:and Hitler hid his battleships after the Bismarck. They used a ton of ships and an aircraft carrier to sink the Bismarck pretty quickly. Ask merchant marines off the east coast, Caribbean, and the Gulf of America if they would’ve liked more UBoats. It took awhile for the strategy against UBoats to became more effective. In ‘41, the strategy of deploying aircraft and escort destroyers with enhanced tracking capabilities hadn’t caught on yet.
Germany’s modern battleships and cruisers scared the shite out of the British and Americans. If the Brits don’t get lucky against Bismarck then the Atlantic routes to the western approaches is cut off due to Bismarck’s presence. RAF would’ve had to divert massive resources to sink Bismarck instead of other missions. The truth is that you could’ve built hundreds of more Uboats and it wouldn’t have meant anything.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:58 pm to rmnldr
quote:
If the Brits don’t get lucky against Bismarck then the Atlantic routes to the western approaches is cut off due to Bismarck’s presence.
Not indefinitely.
Bismarck and the other commerce raiders were always doomed as escort carriers came online and land-based patrol craft gained the range necessary to interdict and detect them. It was only a matter of time.
There was no avenue for Germany to control the Atlantic on the historical timeline to the extent required to win the war. If Hitler had held his horses for another 5-7 years? Then there could be more of a discussion.
This post was edited on 2/23/25 at 2:59 pm
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:59 pm to grizzlylongcut
quote:
When Hitler declared war on us we had no choice
quote:Oh, really? That was probably news to the 2,700 ships sunk by U-boats. shite, they sunk 56 ships in the Gulf alone.
Hitler has no way to carry out a war against us without us going over to him.
And economically, what happens to the US industry with no access to Europe or Asia or to US financial institutions when there's no Britain or free France to pay back the loans?
Posted on 2/23/25 at 3:01 pm to SoFla Tideroller
quote:
what if they ran them South past Gibralter into the Med. Scharnhorst, Gneissnau, Tirpitz plus all the other surface ships could have hooked up with the Regia Marina and shut down Royal Navy.
Torpedo bait.
quote:
the first primary stipulation with France should have been to turn their entire navy over to the Kriegsmarine
They would still have been bottled up in the Med, awaiting slow depreciation from the air.
Germany didn't have a path to winning by starting the war in 1939. They jumped the gun, and the result was always inevitable.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 3:01 pm to HarryBalzack
quote:
Oh, really? That was probably news to the 2,700 ships sunk by U-boats. shite, they sunk 56 ships in the Gulf alone.
Any other way for him to perpetuate a war with us?
Y’all vastly overestimate Nazi capabilities. They had trouble with logistics in Europe yet you think that they were going to be able to wage a war all the way across the ocean when there was no evidence of them ever being able to do that?
This post was edited on 2/23/25 at 3:03 pm
Posted on 2/23/25 at 3:04 pm to sledgehammer
quote:
Most of the Hungarian Jews died in 1944 when Germany was already on the collapse. You would think the priority would’ve been to win the war instead of killing Jews. What do I know though?
I think winning the war was their top priority. All those Jews just starved to death. There's footage to back that up, FFS.
Zyklon B, "death camps," lampshades made of Jew skin- it's all theatrics. It's comforting for people to think of the Nazis as the diabolical supervillain types. The actual truth, that the Nazis were just a typical "big government" political party who ran out of money, would terrify many of us.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 3:05 pm to grizzlylongcut
quote:
Any other way for him to perpetuate a war with us?
Other than sinking enormous amounts of our merchant fleet off our coast?
No, Germany would never have been capable of invading the US. Everyone already knows that.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 3:07 pm to Indefatigable
quote:This is where Man in the High Castle begins
No, Germany would never have been capable of invading the US. Everyone already knows that.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 3:07 pm to sledgehammer
quote:
The Battle of Moscow was fought in the fall and winter of 1941. I know Barbarossa was launched in June. Bypass Moscow altogether and use the full tip of the spear to pierce into the Caucuses is my point.
And leave the military districts and factories churning without issue?
quote:
All this is hypothetical if you haven’t caught on.
And I’m telling you why it wouldn’t have worked.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 3:13 pm to rmnldr
quote:
And leave the military districts and factories churning without issue?
What good are brand new tanks and trucks without fuel to have them run? Everything in Russia would be done with horse and buggy. It would’ve crippled them, and it’s part of the reason why Japan felt the need for imperialism expansion.
I’ll keep entertaining you then.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 3:14 pm to sledgehammer
He sure could have used all those planes and pilots he lost in the battle of Britain.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 3:15 pm to sledgehammer
quote:
They used a ton of ships and an aircraft carrier to sink the Bismarck pretty quickly.
They got lucky to knock out their rudder. And Bismarck still took hundreds of direct hits from Rodney and KGV for her guns to be silenced. Bismarck was not easily dispatched by any means. Her crew scuttled her and she was torpedoed.
quote:
Ask merchant marines off the east coast, Caribbean, and the Gulf of America if they would’ve liked more UBoats. It took awhile for the strategy against UBoats to became more effective. In ‘41, the strategy of deploying aircraft and escort destroyers with enhanced tracking capabilities hadn’t caught on yet.
I don’t disagree that plenty more u-boats would have made a difference but by 1943 their effectiveness was rapidly declining. The battleships and cruisers threatened not only the commerce but the royal navy itself. The destruction of the surface fleet was paramount because they knew that without a surface threat they could focus on escorts to defeat the u-boat threat.
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