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For history buffs, two questions.
Posted on 2/25/18 at 11:31 am
Posted on 2/25/18 at 11:31 am
When Getmany and Russia invaded Poland in 1939, Britain and France declared war on Germany but not Russia, why?
Britain had cracked the Enigma Code and was reading German communications so how did Germany manage to surprise the Allies in 1944 at the Battle of the Bulge?
Britain had cracked the Enigma Code and was reading German communications so how did Germany manage to surprise the Allies in 1944 at the Battle of the Bulge?
Posted on 2/25/18 at 11:33 am to doubleb
quote:
Britain and France declared war on Germany but not Russia, why?
An enemy of my enemy Is my friend. If the devil himself rose against Hitler, I'd at least put a favorable word in the house.
quote:
Britain had cracked the Enigma Code and was reading German communications so how did Germany manage to surprise the Allies in 1944 at the Battle of the Bulge?
Mother winter. The allies also didn't expect a German offensive, believing that they didn't have the manpower or ability to push back.
Also they did have info on German troops massing in the area. They just assumed that it was a resting area for troops to be sent eastward.
This post was edited on 2/25/18 at 11:42 am
Posted on 2/25/18 at 11:34 am to doubleb
Question 1: It wasn’t part of the treaty, or whatever agreement it had with Poland.
Question 2: communication delay would be my guess, but I’m not totally sure.
Question 2: communication delay would be my guess, but I’m not totally sure.
This post was edited on 2/25/18 at 11:41 am
Posted on 2/25/18 at 11:40 am to doubleb
Russia wasnt a long term economic dominant force threat. The German machine was.
Posted on 2/25/18 at 12:14 pm to doubleb
quote:
Britain had cracked the Enigma Code and was reading German communications so how did Germany manage to surprise the Allies in 1944 at the Battle of the Bulge?
Germany radio communication was minimized before the Battle.
Posted on 2/25/18 at 12:54 pm to doubleb
One thing at a time, I suppose. The Allies werent crazy about Stalin's USSR, but knew they would need him to beat the Nazis. It was inevitable that Germany and Russia would go to war with each other. Why not let them beat each other to $#!+ before invading the continent?
As for Enigma, it would have been apparent at some point that the allies cracked their code. They probably changed things or minimized communications by 44.
As for Enigma, it would have been apparent at some point that the allies cracked their code. They probably changed things or minimized communications by 44.
Posted on 2/25/18 at 1:01 pm to doubleb
quote:
so how did Germany manage to surprise the Allies in 1944 at the Battle of the Bulge?
The greatest intelligence failure in recorded history, the buildup literally occurred within hearing and seeing distance of American lines.
Posted on 2/25/18 at 1:05 pm to doubleb
quote:
how did Germany manage to surprise the Allies in 1944 at the Battle of the Bulge?
I don't know the answer to your question but my paw paw fought at the Battle of the Bulge. He died a few years ago but used to tell me stories that were absolutely amazing
This post was edited on 2/25/18 at 3:34 pm
Posted on 2/25/18 at 1:12 pm to fallguy_1978
You had a great paw paw. Teach your kids and grand kids of what he and millions of others did.
Posted on 2/25/18 at 1:12 pm to doubleb
1) I like the answer given already that the treaty between Poland and the Western Allies did not provide for the contingency of Russia taking the action that it took.
2) For the 1944 Ardennes Offensive, Hitler personally imposed strict "Need to Know" security measures on the radio traffic and the paper messenger traffic during the planning phase.
Hitler grew to distrust the Abwehr Intelligence Group that previously ran most Intel ops. This was wise because we now know that Admiral Canaris did indeed become a double agent. So, Hitler, instead of the Abwehr (not SS), Hitler used a different Intell groups that were SS personnel. This newer SS group relied less on Enigma than the "legacy" intell groups operating for Germany.
Finally, Hitler restricted any knowledge of the Offensive up to the very last moment. He informed the Army commanders, the Corps commanders, and the Division commanders only at the very last moment. Many lower level commanders knew nothing of the offensive until the day before the beginning of the attack. Of course, there were signs of a build-up of German units and supply stockpiles and the associated rail and motor traffic. These were clues known to the Allies but were misinterpreted as defensive measures.
In the end, had the German fuel supply situation been good, and had the quality of the German troops themselves been like they were in mid-1943, this German offensive would have broken through and crossed the Meuse. How far after that, who knows? Probably not to Antwerp.
2) For the 1944 Ardennes Offensive, Hitler personally imposed strict "Need to Know" security measures on the radio traffic and the paper messenger traffic during the planning phase.
Hitler grew to distrust the Abwehr Intelligence Group that previously ran most Intel ops. This was wise because we now know that Admiral Canaris did indeed become a double agent. So, Hitler, instead of the Abwehr (not SS), Hitler used a different Intell groups that were SS personnel. This newer SS group relied less on Enigma than the "legacy" intell groups operating for Germany.
Finally, Hitler restricted any knowledge of the Offensive up to the very last moment. He informed the Army commanders, the Corps commanders, and the Division commanders only at the very last moment. Many lower level commanders knew nothing of the offensive until the day before the beginning of the attack. Of course, there were signs of a build-up of German units and supply stockpiles and the associated rail and motor traffic. These were clues known to the Allies but were misinterpreted as defensive measures.
In the end, had the German fuel supply situation been good, and had the quality of the German troops themselves been like they were in mid-1943, this German offensive would have broken through and crossed the Meuse. How far after that, who knows? Probably not to Antwerp.
This post was edited on 2/25/18 at 1:15 pm
Posted on 2/25/18 at 1:19 pm to fallguy_1978
quote:
I don't know the answer to your question but my paw paw fought at the Battle of the Buldge. He died a few years ago but used to tell me stories that were absolutely amazing
Could you briefly (or lengthily) tell one of them?
And to fallguy_1978's paw paw... thank you Sir!
Posted on 2/25/18 at 1:41 pm to doubleb
#2. The Allies were using the Ardennes as a 'rest' front, for fought-out and brand-new divisions. They conned themselves that no one would attack through the Ardennes ("poor tank country"), conveniently forgetting the Germans had come through the Ardennes in the Franco-Prussian War, WW1 (1914, 1918), and WW2 (1940).
Posted on 2/25/18 at 1:52 pm to JPinLondon
My father also was in the Battle of the Bulge. He was attached to Patton’s 3rd Army He said it’s hard to believe how well you can sleep on a moving tank if your tired enough.
He was part of a light machine gun unit in the 95th infantry division.
He was part of a light machine gun unit in the 95th infantry division.
Posted on 2/25/18 at 2:08 pm to saltwaterdawg
Anyone else I'm the mood for a BOB rewatch?
Posted on 2/25/18 at 2:13 pm to saltwaterdawg
My PawPaw foght at the Bulge also. Received a Purple Heart. I have a couple smaal stories I'll share. On a tablet so excuse it being short.
He was called Frenchie, obviously. (St. Martinville coonass) He was sent to civilian homes to get info cause he spoke French. He misinterpreted something and told his buddy who got excited. Seems his buddy thought she was gonna show her cooter, but it was a black iron pot instead.
Said they kept passing big piles of snow for days before they realised they were dead Allied bodies
Took a huge chunk of shrapnel to the shoulder.told him he was getting a medal. He said he didnt want no f-ing medal. Buddy says, but you get to go home. OOWWCH! He turned it up after that.
I miss that old ornery buzzard
He was called Frenchie, obviously. (St. Martinville coonass) He was sent to civilian homes to get info cause he spoke French. He misinterpreted something and told his buddy who got excited. Seems his buddy thought she was gonna show her cooter, but it was a black iron pot instead.
Said they kept passing big piles of snow for days before they realised they were dead Allied bodies
Took a huge chunk of shrapnel to the shoulder.told him he was getting a medal. He said he didnt want no f-ing medal. Buddy says, but you get to go home. OOWWCH! He turned it up after that.
I miss that old ornery buzzard
Posted on 2/25/18 at 2:25 pm to doubleb
quote:
Britain had cracked the Enigma Code and was reading German communications so how did Germany manage to surprise the Allies in 1944 at the Battle of the Bulge?
It's not accurate to say they cracked the Enigma. Bletchley Park knew how the thing worked and they had automation that helped them decipher ciphertext, but it's absolutely wrong to say that they could decipher everything that came across. The Enigma wasn't a single code, but an automated encoding system that allowed one message to be encoded to an absolutely massive number of possible ciphertexts, depending on the machine's settings. Bletchley Park had the ingenuity to build bombes and to exploit certain peculiarities of the system to massively speed up the process of producing possible plaintexts from known ciphertexts, but even then there were still an astronomical number of possible plaintexts to choose from and actually decoding messages took as much social engineering as mechanical engineering and mathematics.
What Bletchley Park could do 100% of the time was produce every single possible plaintext that could be encoded as that ciphertext. That, however, took a long time, even with the automation. A LONG time. Also, let's say you got a ciphertext that read "hgksid wh cosk" and Bletchley Park has enough time to produce every possible plaintext. That could possibly be deciphered as "attack at dawn". It could also be "attack at dusk". It could also be deciphered as "return to base". Any one of those messages is a valid plaintext that could have been encrypted as "hgksid wh cosk", but which one is right? The key knowledge that is missing is the machine's settings which determine what ciphertext you get when you input a given plaintext.
The way the British got around this was to use cribs and flaws in German procedures. The Germans basically had a "day code" system that they'd use for a day. It was very difficult to transmit machine settings securely (in fact, it still is difficult to securely trade a secret) and the machine settings were what you had to know to decipher a message. Due to the difficulties in securely sharing this secret among everyone, they'd reuse the settings for a day. All the members of a given group would use the same highly guarded machine settings for all messages they sent that day. So, that's step one: If you get that machine setting, you can break all transmissions for that group from that day. Step two would be to try to get your hands on what the plaintext of a message SHOULD read. The Brits noticed that certain Enigma operators would compose plaintext messages for everyday reports the same way before encoding and transmitting. Weather would be a good example. If they knew the weather was going to be rainy tomorrow and Fritz was going to be working the Enigma and the Brits knew that Fritz would always deliver that report by encrypting the message "Rainy weather expected by morning", then they'd decode the weather report using the bombes to try different machine settings and when one spit out the weather report exactly the way Fritz always sent it, BINGO. They had the day code and could break the comms until the Germans changed the code per their routine. Sometimes the British would lay a minefield at a certain spot in the ocean and wait until the Germans reported the minefield. Knowing how the minefield report SHOULD look, they'd employ the same technique to extract the day settings. These are just some VERY rudimentary examples to get the idea across. In some instances, all they had was a group of several letters they expected to see in the plaintext. The bombes would dutifully spit out thousands of plaintexts containing the proper group of letters in the proper location. Most of those could be discarded because while the crib portion was correct, the rest was gibberish. Still, the remaining plaintexts then had to be analyzed to decide if there was anything reliable or useful, often by cross-referencing intelligence gathered other ways.
Finally, the Germans were convinced that their system was unbreakable and to protect the knowledge that it was vulnerable, the British simply didn't act on some information to keep the Germans from figuring out their communications were sometimes being read. People were sometimes allowed to die to protect the secret even though the information necessary to save them was available. War's ugly.
The difficulties in this should be apparent. First, to even begin to start to decide which of the deciphered messages the bombes would spit out was correct, you had to have a "crib", a known piece of plaintext to compare decodings against. Coming by those wasn't always easy. If Fritz worked every fourth day, for example, then for the other three days, you had no hope of decrypting anything. Second, even if you had the crib, the Enigma has a simply stunning number of possible configurations and it might be days or weeks before you stumbled upon the proper machine settings and were able to go back and decipher the backlog of communications from that day. By then, the decoded information may be out of date and useless. Finally, there were some communications they never had a crib for that never can be deciphered and there were those unfortunates who were sacrificed to protect the work of Bletchley Park.
If, going back to the earlier example, the real plaintext message was "attack at noon" instead of the other possibilities in many, if not most, instances you wouldn't know about it until the attack happened at noon, even if you handed Bletchley Park "hgksid wh cosk" at midnight.
WALL OF TEXT: ON [OFF]
This post was edited on 2/25/18 at 5:04 pm
Posted on 2/25/18 at 2:39 pm to doubleb
quote:
Britain had cracked the Enigma Code and was reading German communications so how did Germany manage to surprise the Allies in 1944 at the Battle of the Bulge?
Not specific to the Battle of the Bulge, but to decrypted Enigma machine intercepts (Codename ULTRA) in general ...
The Allies protected ULTRA with the highest level of security. It was used in strategic planning, but not as frequently in tactical situations. To avoid having the Germans realize their cypher had been cracked, the Allies typically acted on the information only if it could have been reasonably obtained through another source. There was a great deal of debate between the British and the Americans with ULTRA clearance as to what information should be acted on.
Used properly, the machines with plug boards and extra rotors were practically unbreakable. The rotor settings changed daily, so the Bletchley Park crowd had 24 hours to solve and then it was back to square one. Over time, they recognized patterns in the messages that could be used to help solve the daily puzzle. One high commander frequently ended messages with Heil Hitler. That would give the codebreakers 6 letters (E, I, H, L, R, T) each day. Many message started with ANX, the German word for TO and the letter X as a spacer between words. So that was 3 more letters. There were various other "cribs" that the cryptologists developed.
The Imitation Game is a really good book about Alan Turing and the Bletchley Park codebreakers. It's better than the movie.
Posted on 2/25/18 at 2:41 pm to Lakeboy7
quote:
The greatest intelligence failure in recorded history, the buildup literally occurred within hearing and seeing distance of American lines.
Most intel is in plain sight. The trick is recognizing it for what it is among all the irrelevant information, and also recognizing your own biases.
The reports from front line troops about unusual German activity plus the German radio net going dark were significant in hindsight. But the Bulge was considered a quiet sector so they were ignored. Instead of saying, "maybe it's not a quiet sector after all," they said, "it's a quiet sector so the reports are untrue or exagerrated."
While an intel failure, not nearly the greatest in recorded history IYAM.
Posted on 2/25/18 at 2:41 pm to JPinLondon
Honestly my 2nd hand accounts probably wouldn't do them justice.
My paw paw was an Army ranger, a sharpshooter, and after the war a part time farmer and a plant baw (so frick off people that make fun of them). He told me they damn near froze to death. He said they'd start falling asleep for the first time in days and then the shells would start dropping. He lost both of his best friends (in the army at least) in the battle, both from shelling. I remember him telling me that he was in a foxhole close enough to yell at the Germans at night. They'd taunt one another and tell them they were going to kill them tomorrow.
He told me his foxhole mate PJ (i can't remember his real name but it was something like that) had the major runs for a few days. He'd have to shite every 30 minutes or so and he'd get out and go behind a nearby tree. He went one night and somebody shot him. The shot wasn't clean, apparently a ricochet, and the bullet was lodged in PJs arse but not very deep. Paw paw said they called for a medic but he kept getting shot at and was having trouble getting there. He said he dug the bullet out of PJs arse with his knife and patched it and for some reason they both laughed uncontrollably afterwards because of the situation. They got picked on by the other guys about it the next day. PJ got sent off to the hospital but attended my paw paw's funeral where I met him. He was from Idaho and traveled to LA for his funeral in his mid to late 90s.
What a horrific experience that must have been for a 20 yr old kid. He lost 2 toes in the war but survived. They offered his a discharge after he lost the toes and he declined. He came home and had 2 kids and 5 grandkids and 12 great grandkids. He lived until the ripe old age of 96 and was a kind and gentle man. My parents were divorced and he and my maw maw practically raised me.
These men were heroes in our midst. Soon lost and gone forever.
My paw paw was an Army ranger, a sharpshooter, and after the war a part time farmer and a plant baw (so frick off people that make fun of them). He told me they damn near froze to death. He said they'd start falling asleep for the first time in days and then the shells would start dropping. He lost both of his best friends (in the army at least) in the battle, both from shelling. I remember him telling me that he was in a foxhole close enough to yell at the Germans at night. They'd taunt one another and tell them they were going to kill them tomorrow.
He told me his foxhole mate PJ (i can't remember his real name but it was something like that) had the major runs for a few days. He'd have to shite every 30 minutes or so and he'd get out and go behind a nearby tree. He went one night and somebody shot him. The shot wasn't clean, apparently a ricochet, and the bullet was lodged in PJs arse but not very deep. Paw paw said they called for a medic but he kept getting shot at and was having trouble getting there. He said he dug the bullet out of PJs arse with his knife and patched it and for some reason they both laughed uncontrollably afterwards because of the situation. They got picked on by the other guys about it the next day. PJ got sent off to the hospital but attended my paw paw's funeral where I met him. He was from Idaho and traveled to LA for his funeral in his mid to late 90s.
What a horrific experience that must have been for a 20 yr old kid. He lost 2 toes in the war but survived. They offered his a discharge after he lost the toes and he declined. He came home and had 2 kids and 5 grandkids and 12 great grandkids. He lived until the ripe old age of 96 and was a kind and gentle man. My parents were divorced and he and my maw maw practically raised me.
These men were heroes in our midst. Soon lost and gone forever.
This post was edited on 2/25/18 at 2:53 pm
Posted on 2/25/18 at 2:45 pm to fallguy_1978
One of my clients is Bulge veteran. Very hard of hearing but otherwise of sound mind and body. He trained as a combat engineer but there was a shortage of infantry so they made him a BAR man. He says he still hates cold weather.
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