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Started By
Message
re: EPA Set to remove DEF engine derate...
Posted on 8/12/25 at 2:39 pm to Turnblad85
Posted on 8/12/25 at 2:39 pm to Turnblad85
quote:
One thing I would like to know, does a Def system really result in cleaner air?
It does. The issue is if there is something wrong with the system, what happens next?
0
Posted on 8/12/25 at 2:41 pm to BoostAddict
This is just half-stepping and isn't good enough. They need to get rid of the entire concept and go back to the way engines were 15 years ago before DEF.
What a stupid bunch of bullshite that has severely harmed the trucking industry - by design.
What a stupid bunch of bullshite that has severely harmed the trucking industry - by design.
Posted on 8/12/25 at 2:47 pm to Bjorn Cyborg
quote:
They need to get rid of the entire concept and go back to the way engines were 15 years ago before DEF.
Make it 26 years ago and you'd have something. The diesel engines from ~ 2000 to ~ 2008 were absolutely horrible. All in-cylinder NOx controls with DPF's. It was awful. What we have now is far better than that junk was. The only good thing about those was they were super easy to delete and the government didn't really GAF yet. Now they really GAF big time, and we are just an administration change away from going right back to where we are now. It's going to become a political football of suck.
There are lots of problems here. Lots of companies are investing tons of money to get ahead of upcoming 2027 emissions regulations coming down the pipe. What happens to that? What happens to the fines paid to the EPA over shite that wasn't really a law?
This shite would go so much better if congress would do their fricking jobs and pass or get rid of laws and reign these damn agencies in who hold the country by its collective nutsack.
Posted on 8/12/25 at 3:17 pm to DownshiftAndFloorIt
Go back to the ability to delete and give the consumer the choice.
Posted on 8/12/25 at 3:23 pm to Bow08tie
What needs to happen is congress needs to do their fricking jobs.
Go back to house appointed senators, get rid of all this agency legislature bullshite. Want an emissions law? Pass a fricking law. Can't pass a law? Then frick off, we don't want it.
California will frick everybody regardless, but that's how it really should be. If the state with the big dick economy says it wants emissions controls to operate in their state, good. Let them pass a law in their state.
This has sweeping economical implications and should require more thought than the political whims of whatever idiot occupies the oval office these 4 years or what the appointed head of an agency thinks should be happening.
Its extraordinary frustrating to be on the receiving end of this kind of bullshite. What's a company supposed to do if this does happen? Throw away all of the investment with the hopes that political opinion doesn't swing right back the other way in 3 years? The only sure thing here is no matter what, the customer is going to get fricked.
Go back to house appointed senators, get rid of all this agency legislature bullshite. Want an emissions law? Pass a fricking law. Can't pass a law? Then frick off, we don't want it.
California will frick everybody regardless, but that's how it really should be. If the state with the big dick economy says it wants emissions controls to operate in their state, good. Let them pass a law in their state.
This has sweeping economical implications and should require more thought than the political whims of whatever idiot occupies the oval office these 4 years or what the appointed head of an agency thinks should be happening.
Its extraordinary frustrating to be on the receiving end of this kind of bullshite. What's a company supposed to do if this does happen? Throw away all of the investment with the hopes that political opinion doesn't swing right back the other way in 3 years? The only sure thing here is no matter what, the customer is going to get fricked.
This post was edited on 8/12/25 at 3:26 pm
Posted on 8/12/25 at 3:33 pm to Horsemeat
quote:
DEF needs to be scrapped completely.
DPF and EGR systems should be scrapped.
My F150 has been catalytic converter and EGR free since 2005.
This post was edited on 8/12/25 at 3:40 pm
Posted on 8/12/25 at 3:38 pm to DownshiftAndFloorIt
How do the newer OTR trucks get away with deleted engines?
Seems to me Smokey Bear would fine the shite out of them?
Seems to me Smokey Bear would fine the shite out of them?
This post was edited on 8/12/25 at 3:40 pm
Posted on 8/12/25 at 3:40 pm to DownshiftAndFloorIt
quote:
ake it 26 years ago and you'd have something. The diesel engines from ~ 2000 to ~ 2008 were absolutely horrible.
My 2007 Cummins 5.9 had none of that factory SCR chit and is the pinnacle of diesel engines IMO. Nothing but a catalytic converter. Best truck I've ever had and still have it.
Posted on 8/12/25 at 3:41 pm to BoostAddict
Ford 6.7 will last close to a million miles without DEF fricking up the valves and engine. Gas exhaust recirculation with DEF is an engine destroyer.
Posted on 8/12/25 at 3:43 pm to BoostAddict
Def is such BS. I hate that shite
Posted on 8/12/25 at 3:44 pm to White Bear
quote:
How do the newer OTR trucks get away with deleted engines?
They don't.
quote:
Seems to me Smokey Bear would fine the shite out of them?
They do.
There are people getting away with it but they are taking a big arse risk.
Posted on 8/12/25 at 3:45 pm to Tridentds
quote:
Ford 6.7 will last close to a million miles without DEF fricking up the valves and engine. Gas exhaust recirculation with DEF is an engine destroyer.
Yep, if you deal with the possible CP4 failure issues that will destroy the entire fuel system (not just a Ford issue).
Posted on 8/12/25 at 3:45 pm to BoostAddict
I might have my dates off there. The inter-years between mechanical engines and what we have now were what sucked. 2007-2013 might be what I was looking for there.
Posted on 8/12/25 at 3:46 pm to Tridentds
DEF does clean up exhaust but at the expense of efficiency, equipment durability, ancillary waste from production, distribution and usage of the product.
I can’t see how it is a long term net positive effect.
I can’t see how it is a long term net positive effect.
Posted on 8/12/25 at 3:49 pm to DownshiftAndFloorIt
quote:
People who want aftertreatment to go away have zero understanding of how it works or what it accomplishes
You clearly have never had to pay out of pocket for a new DPF or filter, new NOX or flame temp sensors, or a DPF control module
Those particulate filters are made out of rare earth metals, and they DO eventually need replaced. Prepare thy anus to the tune of $10-20k
A new DPF control module on a Volvo is in the $5000+ range. The flame temp and inlet/outlet sensors are $2000ish.
This post was edited on 8/12/25 at 3:50 pm
Posted on 8/12/25 at 3:51 pm to DownshiftAndFloorIt
quote:
They do.
There are people getting away with it but they are taking a big arse risk.
How would a cop know if you can't tell by looking at it. The only way you can tell my RV is deleted is looking at the SCR parameters on a scan tool.
Posted on 8/12/25 at 3:53 pm to Turnblad85
quote:
I admit I'm not very knowledgeable on the diesel systems. One thing I would like to know, does a Def system really result in cleaner air?
If so, that makes the extra expense and trouble more digestible. I like clean air. I like for my kids to breath clean air.
Does it do so directly at the tailpipe? Yes, the exhaust is cleaner.
BUT, THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH.
The total net impact of DEF systems was never really quantified. You see some of that in this thread:
- What is the environmental impact of making DEF (it is stripped from natural gas at the molecular level)?
- What is the impact of all that DEF packaging and shipping?
- What is the environmental impact of adding the DEF system to the vehicle? It is considerable, in weight (reduces MPG), heat shielding, initial cost, sensors, ad infinitum
- What is the DEF impact when trucks or equipment derate? This is not just economic. Anything that slows down any process in the economy, whether shipping times increasing or construction projects slowed, etc, has an impact on increasing emissions. You also embed the cost of maintenance and DEF supply into literally every industry. I would bet somewhere you can find people who have died because a vehicle derated on them at the wrong time.
I could go on. I don't like diesel particulates. The cities of Europe are coated in a fine layer of them because such a large percentage of vehicles there are diesels. Having said that, I don't think the juice was worth the squeeze in N America.
Posted on 8/12/25 at 3:54 pm to BoostAddict
quote:
If you're unfamiliar with derate... if there is a problem with the DEF or SCR system on your diesel powered vehicle or equipment, you get 4 hours of run time before your truck will only go 5mph... Even if the system is actually functioning properly.
Im very familiar and thank fkn God, however I jut bought a 2025 AT4 Duramax so im stuck with DEF for a few more years
Posted on 8/12/25 at 3:55 pm to member12
quote:
MPG will climb too.
I get 25-26 mpg...thats not bad for a 1500 Diesel
Posted on 8/12/25 at 3:55 pm to DownshiftAndFloorIt
quote:
I might have my dates off there. The inter-years between mechanical engines and what we have now were what sucked. 2007-2013 might be what I was looking for there.
Yep, 2007.5 is when Dodge went to the 6.7 with EGR and DPF and had lots of problems. I think around 2013 for the DEF systems.
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