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Started By
Message
re: EDIT: Should employees be allowed unpaid leave if their work is covered?
Posted on 3/11/16 at 9:43 am to NYNolaguy1
Posted on 3/11/16 at 9:43 am to NYNolaguy1
quote:Hard to have everyone cross trained and have lead time when you're legit brand new to the organization when this pops up, as I try to keep mentioning.
This happens in every industry. You plan around it. Bring in other people to cover for them. Cross train employees so that they can do other jobs. Make it so that employees give lead time for extended leave. It's not rocket science.
quote:The attitudes were extremely low when I took over. Made a lot of sweeping changes, attitudes got lower, then as expected, the real ones with issues left, and were replaced with candidates myself and my boss could handpick, and now 6 months later, the department is in much better shape, have done all the things you've mentioned, and could easily cover shifts when and wherever needed going forward(though not 3 off 1 week for a team of 4 lol).
Also, if the attitude in your shop gets too low, you run the risk of your employees unionizing.
This post was edited on 3/11/16 at 9:51 am
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Posted on 3/11/16 at 9:44 am to NYNolaguy1
quote:This doesn't even make sense.
But somehow they can't afford vacation
Never said we couldn't "afford" vacation. And they also wouldn't get said raise, so again, doesn't make sense in my example, which I know you're clowning on.
Posted on 3/11/16 at 9:48 am to CorporateTiger
quote:No kidding. This is about as standard as it gets in every department I've ever worked, and virtually every team member/co-worker I've ever talked to in all of their previous experiences in other roles that were similar to this one.
I'm as pro-vacation as just about anyone, but that doesn't mean you always get to take off the exact week you want to take off. To take the 4 person department example, the first two people to request that week off get it off. The third guy can take a different week off. This is the way it works around Christmas at every department I have been in.
Guys are acting like it's some crazy line of thinking, but it's pretty darn normal.
As I've said a few times, i think some posters may just be applying their specific roles to every job type/department in regards to vacation, but that's not feasible in all cases.
And to take your Christmas example while 1 or 2 guys are piling on me, my previous position was completely different in that all work didn't have to be 100% completed at the end of every shift, so Christmas/New Year's Eve, as many people as they wanted could take off, 2/3 weeks, as long as you had time off, you could take it. The work was there before you left, and would still be there when you returned...plus it was easier to manage around and pick up the slack with more people out in that role(and also because I knew the entire department wouldn't all decide to take off the same week, realistically). But again, not every department is the same, and that can't be done in every role.
Posted on 3/11/16 at 9:59 am to shel311
This thread wasn't meant to be applicable in every potential scenario. Most people aren't working in tiny businesses or 3-5 person departments.
If a department of 10+ can't function with advance notice of a couple people not being there, it's a poorly run operation.
If a department of 10+ can't function with advance notice of a couple people not being there, it's a poorly run operation.
Posted on 3/11/16 at 10:06 am to Louie T
quote:Yep, agreed.
This thread wasn't meant to be applicable in every potential scenario.
I feel like I put that out there in almost all of my responses, but it was mostly ignored each time.
Posted on 3/11/16 at 10:10 am to GetCocky11
quote:
My cousin works for LinkedIn out in San Fran and she has unlimited vacation. People dont abuse it either. If you hire good quality employees, they are going to get the work done
As more and more boomers leave management, hopefully the "unlimited" vacation thing starts to catch on. It makes me feel good to know that my generation is more of a "work to live" rather than a "live to work" type generation.
Same here. I'm a believer in the concept of "if you get your work done on time and in a satisfactory manner, who cares how you do it?" If you don't get your work done on time, or do it well, you get canned. It's that simple.
No doubt does diminishing returns play a role when it comes to being forced to be in the office 8am-5pm M-F.
This post was edited on 3/11/16 at 10:12 am
Posted on 3/11/16 at 10:11 am to dualed
I started my new job last May and got 3 weeks on day one. My SO started a new job last week and has to wait a year. Our jobs are completely different though. I have design deadlines to meet and she has teeth to clean.
Posted on 3/11/16 at 10:23 am to dualed
quote:
I don't get PAID leave until I've been with the company for 1 year and after that it's only 40 hours which basically equates to 3 days of paid leave per year. (12 hr shift x 3 = 36 hours, the remaining 4 irrelevant essentially).
And this vacation accrual is fairly typical among other plants I would imagine
You must work for a shitty company, or you're just a lowly contractor.
Posted on 3/11/16 at 10:46 am to OMLandshark
quote:
It's good to have contempt for your employees.
Your comprehension skills seem worse than your job skills.
Posted on 3/11/16 at 10:51 am to htownjeep
quote:
I feel this isn't something that can be applied to everyone. People at different stages in their careers can get/expect different things.
-Just out of college and hungry to make a name for yourself? frick no. The odds are that you won't get anything like that and anyone who expects more in that situation might be a tad delusional.
-Been in a certain industry for a while, have made a name for yourself, and competitors/headhunters are always contacting you for opportunities? frick yes. You can negotiate a frickton into your agreement and vacation pay is not usually the nut that will lure you away because that is a given. Salary, stocks, signing bonus, paying COBRA, vacation pay, 401k matching...and several other things but these are just off the top of my head.
This guy gets it...
Posted on 3/11/16 at 10:52 am to MadDoggyStyle
quote:
Your comprehension skills seem worse than your job skills.
So how else am I supposed to interprete calling your own employees "mouth breathers". Please tell me how that can be seen as a positive by your own employees?
Posted on 3/11/16 at 10:59 am to htownjeep
quote:That's certainly true with respect to their relative worth to the industry.
I feel this isn't something that can be applied to everyone. People at different stages in their careers can get/expect different things.
quote:
Just out of college and hungry to make a name for yourself? frick no. The odds are that you won't get anything like that and anyone who expects more in that situation might be a tad delusional.
This is where I divert from the original question 'Do you feel employees should be entitled to vacation prior to earning it' and jump into how businesses can best position themselves to attract the most talented people.
Your claim that anyone, a green employee or not, who expects vacation time at the moment of hire is delusional is only looking at the issue from one perspective, and that, the 'only one perspective' issue is becoming an outdated approach to business.
As employers, we should strive to hire the most talented people. There are things we can do to provide our companies with a competitive advantage over our competitors. And if I were looking around for a job today and was deciding upon two or more job offers, I would choose the one that provided the most benefits and invested the most in my personal life and family (all other things being equal, of course).
As employers, we can't simply shame people into lowering their expectations of their employers.
The world is changing and the talent pool is changing. We must adapt. Companies that don't adapt and don't offer their employees benefits or invest back into their employee's family life will be left with a less talented and potentially disgruntled workforce who spends portions of their day looking for another job, because their friends and contemporaries have a much better work situation... and then the company is stuck footing the bill to hire and train new employees as the turnover rate increases.
So I guess I don't disagree with you from the perspective in which you wrote your comment, but I think companies should start to realize that they/we are in competition for a highly educated workforce... it's not just the employees themselves who have competition.
This post was edited on 3/11/16 at 11:00 am
Posted on 3/11/16 at 11:00 am to OMLandshark
quote:
mouth breathers
I took this statement as a hyperbole in his response to you.
Carry on, you savvy salesman you. I hope nothing for the best for you in your illustrious career of selling stuff to people who were most likely going to buy it anyway, middle man.
Posted on 3/11/16 at 11:16 am to ThatMakesSense
quote:
I took this statement as a hyperbole in his response to you.
Hyperbole usually has some foundation of truth to it.
quote:
Carry on, you savvy salesman you. I hope nothing for the best for you in your illustrious career of selling stuff to people who were most likely going to buy it anyway, middle man.
Yeah, I'll continue to work good flexible hours, having lots of vacation time, get paid and measured for my actual output, and be able to do what I want to do. I'm very glad I'm not too dim to negotiate vacation and slaving away from 8 to 5 for the rest of my life.
Posted on 3/11/16 at 11:18 am to OMLandshark
I was being sarcastic. You assumed I had a bunch of unskilled employee's and I sarcastically said, "Yeah, I have a bunch of unskilled mouth breathers making bank". You conveniently left off the fact that I told you they were all college graduates with business, engineering and chemistry majors. You are very thin skinned and can't make your case without getting into name calling and insults. I bet you don't get along well with your fellow employee's or managers, which is important in being successful in life. We all need to look in the mirror sometimes. You need to take a LONG look.
Posted on 3/11/16 at 11:31 am to MadDoggyStyle
I'll let my company know it's delusional to desire & take a day off in the first couple years of working there. They'll appreciate me saving them all that money in PTO.
This post was edited on 3/11/16 at 11:32 am
Posted on 3/11/16 at 11:40 am to MadDoggyStyle
quote:
was being sarcastic. You assumed I had a bunch of unskilled employee's and I sarcastically said, "Yeah, I have a bunch of unskilled mouth breathers making bank". You conveniently left off the fact that I told you they were all college graduates with business, engineering and chemistry majors. You are very thin skinned and can't make your case without getting into name calling and insults. I bet you don't get along well with your fellow employee's or managers, which is important in being successful in life. We all need to look in the mirror sometimes. You need to take a LONG look.
Two points (really more of a one or the other)
1)Either you're totally lying and don't hire these guys out of school.
2)Or they are the bottom tier of candidates (think just happy to graduate 2.0 GPA types), and you hire them because they are just happy to work- anywhere with or without benefits.
Every decent engineering job I have ever seen offers vacation, sick time, health insurance and some sort of 401k (either matching or ESOP). This is offered to recent college grads as a standard industry practice. I have seen this both in New Orleans and New York City (even as an out of state outsider).
If you don't offer these things it makes me think you're a bottom dwelling boss that picks up the bottom of the litter and treats them like shite because they have no where else to go. It also empowers you to bully them as you see fit. It makes sense.
Posted on 3/11/16 at 11:42 am to Louie T
I never said that. We give 2 weeks after 1 year. Our employee's get 13 paid holiday's per year, work hours are 8-5, M-F with weekends off. It's not like they are working 7 days/week.
They work hard and are compensated generously with bonus's that end up being 50-100% of salary. New hires with experience, get vacation day 1 depending on their years of experience. Our industry is very technology oriented and it takes a minimum of 3 years to train a person, so those first years for a new hire out of college is all investment for the company. If they need time off for a special event, they can come to me and we usually work something out, but we just don't have a formal "vacation" period for the first 12 months.
Experienced people are hard to find, but I bend over backwards to keep them once we do. We have been very successful with that model and we don't lack for people who want to work here. . I see no need to fix what isn't broken.
They work hard and are compensated generously with bonus's that end up being 50-100% of salary. New hires with experience, get vacation day 1 depending on their years of experience. Our industry is very technology oriented and it takes a minimum of 3 years to train a person, so those first years for a new hire out of college is all investment for the company. If they need time off for a special event, they can come to me and we usually work something out, but we just don't have a formal "vacation" period for the first 12 months.
Experienced people are hard to find, but I bend over backwards to keep them once we do. We have been very successful with that model and we don't lack for people who want to work here. . I see no need to fix what isn't broken.
This post was edited on 3/11/16 at 11:43 am
Posted on 3/11/16 at 11:42 am to NYNolaguy1
Spot on. This guy has officially over played his hand.
Posted on 3/11/16 at 11:44 am to NYNolaguy1
I saw everything you mentioned except for the first year vacation, and also got some different small scale benefits like paid parking, etc. I think it is just different from who you are interviewing with (local/national) and what the company culture is.
I graduated with an applied mathematics degree and had scholarship opportunities for grad school although I decided to start working instead and only mention that to give an indication of my "tier".
I graduated with an applied mathematics degree and had scholarship opportunities for grad school although I decided to start working instead and only mention that to give an indication of my "tier".
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