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re: Do Russian history students learn about WWII the other way around?
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:54 pm to ChewyDante
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:54 pm to ChewyDante
quote:
Something that I find truly fascinating is the widespread interest and awareness in the crimes and personalities of Nazi Germany but no those of the Soviet Union. I think the fact that Germany was a First World, central European nation and the Nazis had such pomp and pageantry is largely why. But the crimes and butchery of the NKVD and characters like Lavrentiy Beria, Kaganovich, and even Molotov are not well known by most people. It's my opinion that Beria should be known worldwide every bit as much as Himmler. He was a monster of the highest order and met quite the ironic fate.
The US media was in love with our Soviet 'allies', as was a large portion of the Democratic party.
2
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:56 pm to ChewyDante
A lot of what the Nazi's did we didn't know about until later, same with the Soviets. They kept so many things tight to the chest.
I for one think the allying with Stalin was the one part of WW2 that hurt us. Their planes of the later forties and early fifties were clones of technology that we gave them. They stole much from American innovation in the 40's. Including having spies in the Manhattan project.
Could we have fought Germany without allying with Russia?
The enemy of my enemy is my friend, yet here both were truly our enemy. Some like Patton saw this early on. Yet most felt the only path to peace was allying with Russia.
Another interesting part of this war to ponder.
I for one think the allying with Stalin was the one part of WW2 that hurt us. Their planes of the later forties and early fifties were clones of technology that we gave them. They stole much from American innovation in the 40's. Including having spies in the Manhattan project.
Could we have fought Germany without allying with Russia?
The enemy of my enemy is my friend, yet here both were truly our enemy. Some like Patton saw this early on. Yet most felt the only path to peace was allying with Russia.
Another interesting part of this war to ponder.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:59 pm to ChewyDante
Starting this one next week (have two more I want to read first)
Family members tend to give me books for Christmas. My favorite gifts. This one is 800 pages of small print so I hope it's not too long winded on intricacies.
Family members tend to give me books for Christmas. My favorite gifts. This one is 800 pages of small print so I hope it's not too long winded on intricacies.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 1:02 pm to Napoleon
quote:
Wasn't this part of Rommel's and other officers of the Wehrmacht's greater plan? This led to operation Valkyrie in the attempt to kill Hitler and shift power from the SS to the Wehrmacht and with the greater goal of ending the war and focusing on the Red threat?
The 20 July plot specifically was looking towards the greater threat of Soviet rule of Europe.
I'm not sure about Rommel being supportive of this, but definitely Himmler.
Beck, Goerdeler, Witzleben, Olbricht for sure (obviously).
Posted on 1/8/17 at 1:02 pm to FightinTigersDammit
I don't know that it's anything to do with media love so much as it is the timelines involved. We caught Hitler and the Nazis in the act, as it were, with the Holocaust. Americans were there, walking through the concentration camps, staring at starved and tortured prisoners, seeing the huge piles of shoes and detritus from victims, taking pictures so that it would live in posterity. It found its way into the American consciousness: we helped put a stop to this.
Soviet brutality was protected knowledge for a long time. We never stopped it or experienced it directly. We heard rumors about it from behind the Iron Curtain for decades, and only once the Soviet Union fell did it all come out in the open - but by then almost everyone involved was already dead. There's a distance that makes it feel less real.
Soviet brutality was protected knowledge for a long time. We never stopped it or experienced it directly. We heard rumors about it from behind the Iron Curtain for decades, and only once the Soviet Union fell did it all come out in the open - but by then almost everyone involved was already dead. There's a distance that makes it feel less real.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 1:03 pm to TheTideMustRoll
quote:
Yes. The officers in on the plot intended to attempt to make peace with the west while continuing the war against the USSR. Whether or not they would have been successful is debatable. Although they planned to eliminate the Nazis, it seems unlikely that the west would have looked very favorably on a replacement government installed by the very military they were fighting to defeat.
From what I had gathered, the Allies would not have settled with a new government either. Whether the Nazis had been deposed or not, unconditional surrender were the terms for any German government. Now, whether they would have changed their minds by, say, January 1945 and been willing to settle upon the terrifying realization of what was unfolding with Soviet swallowing of all of Eastern Europe, who knows. Churchill began sounding warnings late in the war as he began to become very uneasy with Stalin and the Soviets. And the firm Allied commitment to denazification and stripping Germany of it's industry postwar took a complete 180 when the relationship with the Soviets began to turn for the worst. So pragmatism was in the fold to a certain degree. But it was always clear to me that had Hitler been killed and the Goerdeler/Stauffenberg government assumed power, the Allies would not have offered them different terms, at least not initially.
This post was edited on 1/8/17 at 1:04 pm
Posted on 1/8/17 at 1:05 pm to TIGERSandFROGS
Rommel supported many Anti-Hitler ideals. He was forced to Kill himself and then died a hero.
The books on him are great. Truly an interesting general.
The books on him are great. Truly an interesting general.
quote:
In 1944, Rommel was implicated in the 20 July plot to assassinate Hitler. Due to Rommel's status as a national hero, Hitler desired to eliminate him quietly. Hitler forced Rommel to kill himself, in return for assurances that Rommel's family would not be persecuted following his death. Rommel was given a state funeral, and it was announced that he had succumbed to his injuries from the strafing of his staff car in Normandy.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 1:05 pm to Napoleon
quote:
Family members tend to give me books for Christmas. My favorite gifts. This one is 800 pages of small print so I hope it's not too long winded on intricacies.
My family members keep giving me books that I really don't want.
If they would just give me WWII related stuff only they'd be good.
Report back on how you like it. I'd definitely like to increase my prewar knowledge, particularly in regards to the Soviets.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 1:06 pm to Tiger1242
What gave you the idea that kids are taught d-day won the war? That is not the case.
Im pretty sure most everyone is taught that the Soviet Union decimated Germany. The knockout blow being the sacking of Berlin.
D-day was just a big right cross that finished off the western front
Im pretty sure most everyone is taught that the Soviet Union decimated Germany. The knockout blow being the sacking of Berlin.
D-day was just a big right cross that finished off the western front
Posted on 1/8/17 at 1:09 pm to ChewyDante
quote:
If they would just give me WWII related stuff only they'd be good.
My borther and mother and law did great this year.
My brother said "I know you got too many WW2 books so I got you four WW1 books" including the Dark Valley, All Quiet on the Western Front and WWONE.
Last year I was at a book sale and they had this collection of ww2 books I really wanted but I already bought two boxes of books and thought that would be too many. Then I changed my mind and went back the next day and they were all gone. This Christmas I found out my mother and law bought the Two boxes of WW2 books for me. It's all 39 Time Life WW2 books. The new jewel of my ww2 collection for sure.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 1:12 pm to Napoleon
quote:
Could we have fought Germany without allying with Russia?
Not to unconditional surrender, IMO. There are lots of moral conundrums and foreign policy dilemmas and contradictions posed by the entire prewar, war, and postwar period. It's truly the most fascinating historic period because it literally has a little bit of everything in it. It really challenges your worldview and turns simplistic, black and white concepts of morality, idealism, and policy conviction on their heads.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 1:13 pm to ChewyDante
I have to run, taking the kids out to play in the snow. I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread! Thanks to all who participated in it.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 1:14 pm to TheTideMustRoll
quote:
Soviet brutality was protected knowledge for a long time
Correct. Whitewashed by the US media. The NYT painted Soviet Russia as a paradise in the 1930's, ignoring the deliberate starvation of the Ukraine.
There were many, many Soviet sympathizers in the media and government.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 1:15 pm to Tiger1242
I grew up in the 80s hating Russia.
Still don't trust the reds.
Still don't trust the reds.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 1:23 pm to Napoleon
quote:
It's all 39 Time Life WW2 books. The new jewel of my ww2 collection for sure.
I have 38. Missing the book on the Battle of the Atlantic.
Stumbled across someone unloading a bunch of WWII books in a storage shed. My collection was boosted immensely. I don't know when I'll ever have the time to read all this shite.
I picked a bunch out and then the girl came over to figure a price. She said, I guess $85? I said, here, just take a $100. I must have gotten like 60 books out of it.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 1:55 pm to FightinTigersDammit
quote:times haven't changed much
he US media was in love with our Soviet 'allies', as was a large portion of the Democratic party.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 2:05 pm to Tiger1242
When 7/8 of all German troops died on the eastern front...the eastern front witself had more casualties than WWI combined
Posted on 1/8/17 at 2:10 pm to Tiger1242
Hopefully a real Russian will answer
Posted on 1/8/17 at 2:16 pm to AUCE05
"elite Jews"
It's amazing how people will just rollover intellectually for any scape goating demogague.
We truly are sheeple...
It's amazing how people will just rollover intellectually for any scape goating demogague.
We truly are sheeple...
This post was edited on 1/8/17 at 2:33 pm
Posted on 1/8/17 at 2:45 pm to Tiger1242
quote:
because Truman treated Stalin like shite and basically ensured he'd become our enemy
Wow. No.
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