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re: Do Russian history students learn about WWII the other way around?
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:22 pm to The Boat
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:22 pm to The Boat
quote:
Russia doesn't stand a chance without US supplying them with vehicles and equipment. That combined with their complete disregard for human life is how they won the war. Their losses are staggering. Stalin would have thrown every man, woman, and child at the Germans to win.
A lot of this.. I sometimes wonder how different the world would have been if the Communist and not the Socialist took Germany. Would a communist Germany and Russia (and possibly Spain, since The Condor legions wouldn't have existed).
You would have a huge part of the world's manufacturing potential and manpower under Stalin. A WW2 would have had even higher stakes. Stalin is worse than Hitler in most measure.
Yes, Hitler hated Jews, Stalin hated everyone. He killed family and friends. Had founding fathers of the USSR killed, and like Hitler was an outsider. How odd is it that the Germany of WW2 was ran by an Austrian, or that the evil Russian menace was ran by a Georgian? One who was basically the bloodthirsty pit bull of Lenin. Neither were even the ideals of the cult of personality they preached.
WW2 is just so fascinating, so many domino's had to fall into exact place for it to happen.
This post was edited on 1/8/17 at 12:37 pm
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:24 pm to TheTideMustRoll
quote:
Studies have shown that the US and British bombing campaign against Germany, while vastly destructive of civil infrastructure, had relatively little impact on Germany's ability to make war.
Yes and no. By the war's end Germany's oil production and their ability to move supplies and troops were in absolute shambles as a result of the air campaign. On the other hand, things like aircraft production were actually higher in the later years of the war than the early years due to Speer's reorganization of German war production and moving factories underground. The Germans were producing aircraft that they didn't have enough qualified pilots to fly. And that they didn't have the oil and fuel reserves to waste on training.
quote:
The truth is, by the time 1944 rolled around, the Germans had the right of it: the Soviet Union was by far a bigger threat to worldwide peace and stability than a beaten Germany. The Nazis just didn't understand that the postwar world had no place for them in it.
Hitler was a terrible judge of the Allied mentality. He, correctly IMO, viewed the USSR as a mutual enemy to Western Civilization and always held out hope that the Allies saw this as well and would break with the Soviets when it was clear that Germany was willing to acquiesce to them in favor or fighting the Soviets. He never seemed to fully grasp the Allied resolve to see Nazi Germany completely eliminated, even at the risk of empowering the Soviet Union to essentially take over everything that seemed to cause the outbreak of war in the first place. In this respect, Hitler was a very accurate judge of the Soviet mentality, whereas our leadership was absolutely not.
This post was edited on 1/8/17 at 12:32 pm
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:26 pm to Napoleon
quote:
One who was basically the bloodthirsty pit bull of Lenin.
Even Lenin didn't want Stalin taking over the Party due to concerns of his character. An interesting question would be what course history would have taken had Trotsky assumed power instead of Stalin.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:28 pm to ChewyDante
quote:
This is not so. A simple examination of how the Soviets treated their own people and military makes this all the more clear. Murders and gulag imprisonment were routine. They were every bit as monstrous in their conduct as anything the Germans did long before the German invasion.
Very True, look up how bloody (on both sides) the Bolshevik revolution was. The White and Red Russians themselves had two camps each (Bolsheviks v Mensheviks, Pro-Czar v Pro Federal) that also were bloody against each other. Torture, raping and pillaging and cruel imprisonment were common going back even before then. Russians seem to place a very low value on the lives of others.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:28 pm to AlceeFortier
I don't want this post to fall by the wayside, because I feel there may be an opportunity to educate someone here. What exactly are you asking for proof of, Alcee?
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:29 pm to TheTideMustRoll
Well said and based in fact. Something that many posters care not.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:29 pm to Tiger1242
I too could be the winner of a world war If I am willing to sacrifice 8.6 MILLION soldiers and 26.6 MILLION people overall 
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:30 pm to Napoleon
This is the sad truth about socialism in general: people cannot be counted on to act in ways that aren't in line with their own selfish interests. Therefore, if the system depends on them doing so in order to function, they must be forced.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:32 pm to TheTideMustRoll
quote:
The truth is, by the time 1944 rolled around, the Germans had the right of it: the Soviet Union was by far a bigger threat to worldwide peace and stability than a beaten Germany. The Nazis just didn't understand that the postwar world had no place for them in it.
Wasn't this part of Rommel's and other officers of the Wehrmacht's greater plan? This led to operation Valkyrie in the attempt to kill Hitler and shift power from the SS to the Wehrmacht and with the greater goal of ending the war and focusing on the Red threat?
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:35 pm to ChewyDante
quote:
I have a 14 part audio lecture by Margaret MacMillan titled Six Months That Changed the World, The Paris Peace Conference. I don't remember where the hell I got it but I downloaded it for free. If you are interested in the subject I highly recommend it. It discusses the subject of Ho Chi Minh and lots of other peoples under colonial rule and their emissaries to the peace conference lobbying for independence under Wilson's proclaimed principles of self determination. It was really good.
I have her book.
It's where I got that about Ho Chi Minh and Wilson's failure's to unite the US in time of war.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:40 pm to Napoleon
Yes. The officers in on the plot intended to attempt to make peace with the west while continuing the war against the USSR. Whether or not they would have been successful is debatable. Although they planned to eliminate the Nazis, it seems unlikely that the west would have looked very favorably on a replacement government installed by the very military they were fighting to defeat.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:41 pm to ChewyDante
quote:do you have a link to this? I've never read that and would love to
There is documentation that shows as late as 1943 and 1944 Stalin was still willing to entertain peace offers with the Germans due to his distrust of the Allies. There were very determined German diplomats who sought to convince Hitler to pursue this option and they passed feelers through back channels in Sweden to gauge Soviet receptiveness and they reported back that there was in fact possible interest, yet Hitler never actively pursued it any further.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:45 pm to Napoleon
quote:
Very True, look up how bloody (on both sides) the Bolshevik revolution was. The White and Red Russians themselves had two camps each (Bolsheviks v Mensheviks, Pro-Czar v Pro Federal) that also were bloody against each other. Torture, raping and pillaging and cruel imprisonment were common going back even before then. Russians seem to place a very low value on the lives of others.
Something that I find truly fascinating is the widespread interest and awareness in the crimes and personalities of Nazi Germany but no those of the Soviet Union. I think the fact that Germany was a First World, central European nation and the Nazis had such pomp and pageantry is largely why.
But the crimes and butchery of the NKVD and characters like Lavrentiy Beria, Kaganovich, and even Molotov are not well known by most people.
It's my opinion that Beria should be known worldwide every bit as much as Himmler. He was a monster of the highest order and met quite the ironic fate.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:46 pm to WestCoastAg
If I recall correctly, there were some feelers put out to a few Soviet officials, and the response was that they would at least listen to offers, but could make no promises beyond that. However, there is no proof that the German overtures were actually ever presented to Stalin himself, so the responses were most likely completely unofficial.
Again, I'm going off long memory here, so I might be off base. Someone who knows feel free to correct.
Again, I'm going off long memory here, so I might be off base. Someone who knows feel free to correct.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:46 pm to Napoleon
quote:
It's where I got that about Ho Chi Minh and Wilson's failure's to unite the US in time of war.
Well that settles that then.
Sometimes it pops up when my Ipod is on shuffle and the response from others is typically, "What the frick is this shite?"
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:47 pm to ChewyDante
quote:
He never seemed to fully grasp the Allied resolve to see Nazi Germany completely eliminated, even at the risk of empowering the Soviet Union to essentially take over everything that seemed to cause the outbreak of war in the first place. In this respect, Hitler was a very accurate judge of the Soviet mentality, whereas our leadership was absolutely not.
I think you're undervaluing Churchill's input into the Anglo-American position on unconditional surrender. Britain didn't care much about the political future of Eastern Europe in comparison to their desires for total victory over the perpetrators of the Blitz.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:49 pm to ChewyDante
quote:I've always wondered what the 20th century would have been like if he wasn't murdered in khrushchevs coup
Lavrentiy Beria
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:50 pm to TIGERSandFROGS
quote:
I think you're undervaluing Churchill's input into the Anglo-American position on unconditional surrender.
Well I definitely didn't intend to. Churchill and Roosevelt alike were on the same page with this. It was Hitler that failed to fully grasp this fact.
Posted on 1/8/17 at 12:53 pm to WestCoastAg
quote:
do you have a link to this? I've never read that and would love to
I first read about it in John Toland's biography of Hitler. I'm not sure what's out there on the interwebs with legit sourcing on it but there may actually be better documentation since Toland's book came out long before Soviet archives were opened after the collapse.
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