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re: Crazy story out of Netherlands: Dr. murders woman with dementia, is acquitted
Posted on 9/12/19 at 10:24 am to RogerTheShrubber
Posted on 9/12/19 at 10:24 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Why is it not murder? Did she consent?
when she still had a sound mind, yes
1
Posted on 9/12/19 at 10:25 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
Last year I lost my mom to dementia, it really is a terrible thing to witness when a disease strips everything from your loved one. Had euthanasia been an option, my family would’ve seriously considered it.
Posted on 9/12/19 at 10:25 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
We need to have some type of law in this country to do this. My mom layed in a bed hooked to a tube for 3 years totally incapable of communicating before thankfully passing last year. There are 4 other ladies in the same home that are going on 5 years in exact same medical state. We the families have met each other many times wishing there was a way to honor their wishes as stated in conversations with them years earlier when signing DNR documents . Not to even mention the incredible expense each family endured. It needs to be done
This post was edited on 9/12/19 at 10:27 am
Posted on 9/12/19 at 10:26 am to sacrathetic
quote:
Then do it.
But don't involve the state. When you involve the state, then utter destruction follows.
Pretty tough for someone that can't use their limbs to kill themselves effectively.
And for those that can, you'd rather them blow their brains out somewhere instead of being with family and friends in their own house and drifting away peacefully?
If a doctor signs off that a patient is of sound mind and another doctor signs off that a patient is incurable and in pain, then a third doctor should be allowed to administer medicine to let them pass away.
Posted on 9/12/19 at 10:27 am to Salmon
quote:
when she still had a sound mind, yes
So, killing people against their will is fine with you regardless of how the person feels about it?
You're making a judgement that she should have been killed?
Posted on 9/12/19 at 10:27 am to Salmon
quote:
it isn't so simple
she gave consent when she still had a sound mind
It is simple. She was not of sound mind at the moment the drugs were administered.
That is unacceptable.
It is unfortunate, but if we want to legalize this practice, that is what we have to do. Draw the line.
Posted on 9/12/19 at 10:29 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
So, killing people against their will is fine with you regardless of how the person feels about it?
the patient gave the doctors the order to euthanize her when she reached a certain point
whens he did that, she put the burden on the doctors to decide when it was time
quote:
You're making a judgement that she should have been killed?
I'm not
the doctors are, and that is exactly the power she gave the doctors
Posted on 9/12/19 at 10:29 am to redfish99
quote:
We need to have some type of law in this country to do this.
Oregon has a death with dignity law.
Posted on 9/12/19 at 10:29 am to Breauxsif
quote:
The article states, the physician drugged her, WITHOUT her knowledge, which proves consent was not granted by the woman.
"A 74 year old Dutch woman with dementia had written she wanted to be euthanized "whenever I think the time is right.""
you are flat out wrong. The patient had written explicit desires for euthanasia as the physician saw fit. In the netherlands this is likely equivalent to a DNR/DNI. Given her altered mental status [AMS :)] along with family support/cooperation, and explicit written consent this doc should be 100% in the clear.
go away all you big gov lovers.
Posted on 9/12/19 at 10:29 am to TheCaterpillar
quote:
but if we want to legalize this practice, that is what we have to do. Draw the line.
Correct. This case definitely creates the proverbial slippery slope.
Posted on 9/12/19 at 10:31 am to TheCaterpillar
quote:
It is simple. She was not of sound mind at the moment the drugs were administered.
That is unacceptable.
which is the case for a lot euthanasia patients
you realize this right?
many are past the point of communicating when it is done
are those also murder?
Posted on 9/12/19 at 10:34 am to AMS
No, as she saw fit, not the doctor. You're wrong.
quote:
The 74-year-old woman had renewed her living will about a year before she died, writing that she wanted to be euthanized "whenever I think the time is right." Later, the patient said several times in response to being asked if she wanted to die: "But not just now, it's not so bad yet
Posted on 9/12/19 at 10:35 am to BamaCoaster
quote:
The bodies are, but the mind/soul/whatever is not. They are a waste of time, money, energy, and resources.
Brutally Honest and, IMO, mostly true.
Posted on 9/12/19 at 10:39 am to RogerTheShrubber
and thus the controversy
she gave the order that she wanted to be euthanized, but she also was not of a sound mind, as she couldn't even recognize her own self in the mirror
at what point does the family and doctors take over for someone that far gone?
should they have waited until the disease fully rendered her unable to communicate? would it then still be murder?
she gave the order that she wanted to be euthanized, but she also was not of a sound mind, as she couldn't even recognize her own self in the mirror
at what point does the family and doctors take over for someone that far gone?
should they have waited until the disease fully rendered her unable to communicate? would it then still be murder?
Posted on 9/12/19 at 10:48 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
No, as she saw fit, not the doctor. You're wrong.
ok I may have misinterpreted that portion. it detracts from my point, but im still correct overall. either way there was explicit written consent + AMS (cant make own decisions) + family support/cooperation.
given the explicit consent for euthanasia and the fact that in the netherlands the doctor “did not have to verify the current desire to die.”,... because consent was already given. altered mental status again means that the patient cannot make the determination for themself so decision making goes to POA ---> the family who supported and participated.
Posted on 9/12/19 at 10:52 am to AMS
quote:
"A 74 year old Dutch woman with dementia had written she wanted to be euthanized "whenever I think the time is right."" you are flat out wrong. The patient had written explicit desires for euthanasia as the physician saw fit. In the netherlands this is likely equivalent to a DNR/DNI. Given her altered mental status [AMS :)] along with family support/cooperation, and explicit written consent this doc should be 100% in the clear.
Yeah you’re wrong
Posted on 9/12/19 at 10:56 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
That is murder. Euthanasia, like abortion, is murder. Life is pretty damned rare, and we should nurture it from conception until natural end.
This post was edited on 9/12/19 at 2:36 pm
Posted on 9/12/19 at 10:59 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
IIRC, docs have HUGE leeway on euthanasia in Europe. They can basically declare a patient to be too sick to survive and perform it.
Lots of sick kids under 2 years who die this way, I believe.
Lots of sick kids under 2 years who die this way, I believe.
Posted on 9/12/19 at 10:59 am to Breauxsif
quote:
Yeah you’re wrong
no only misinterpreted a portion, which doesnt affect anything else I stated.
Given her altered mental status (this means she cant make her own medical decisions and there is no duty to assess current desire in the netherlands),that means the family has decision making power and they supported and cooperated in the patients place since the patient explictly consented to euthanasia. This doc should be 100% in the clear.
IDC if you think euthanasia is murder or not. It is legal in the netherlands. Nothing was done improperly according to their euthanasia guidelines.
Posted on 9/12/19 at 11:34 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
That's where we are headed.
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