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Message
re: Civil Engineers - Sectional Concrete vs. Continuous Asphalt Pavement
Posted on 1/28/25 at 7:17 am to SoFlaGuy
Posted on 1/28/25 at 7:17 am to SoFlaGuy
quote:
So why don’t Operators start designing?
Shhhh, let them live in their delusions. I've had contractors fail to properly layout a fricking rectangular slab and put penetrations in the right spots.
0
Posted on 1/28/25 at 7:17 am to Power-Dome
Cost and time.
Asphalt is cheaper and fast to put together.
As long as it’s operable, government offices like DOTD are gonna go with asphalt regardless if concrete is a better decision
It’s always a money thing, not a right thing
Asphalt is cheaper and fast to put together.
As long as it’s operable, government offices like DOTD are gonna go with asphalt regardless if concrete is a better decision
It’s always a money thing, not a right thing
Posted on 1/28/25 at 8:35 am to Swazla
You should do your homework
None of these taxes fund state and federal roadwork in either state.
Texas funds their state and federal roads with:
Motor fuel taxes: Taxes on gasoline and other motor fuels which is 4 cents higher than Louisiana (this is the only state funding source Louisiana has.)
Vehicle registration fees: Fees paid to register a vehicle - This does not go to roads in Louisiana
Federal highway funds: Reimbursements from the federal government - All states get this. This is the other gas tax each state pays.
Texas also uses tolls which make Louisiana residents howl at the sky.
Proposition 1 and Proposition 7: Voter-approved propositions that provide funding for road development, construction, and maintenance - Louisiana legislature will never do this.
quote:
Texas has no income tax and has recently cut their property tax. ANd the sales tax in Texas is lower than La.
None of these taxes fund state and federal roadwork in either state.
Texas funds their state and federal roads with:
Motor fuel taxes: Taxes on gasoline and other motor fuels which is 4 cents higher than Louisiana (this is the only state funding source Louisiana has.)
Vehicle registration fees: Fees paid to register a vehicle - This does not go to roads in Louisiana
Federal highway funds: Reimbursements from the federal government - All states get this. This is the other gas tax each state pays.
Texas also uses tolls which make Louisiana residents howl at the sky.
Proposition 1 and Proposition 7: Voter-approved propositions that provide funding for road development, construction, and maintenance - Louisiana legislature will never do this.
Posted on 1/28/25 at 8:36 am to Fat and Happy
quote:
government offices like DOTD are gonna go with asphalt regardless if concrete is a better decision
DOTD has to follow the law the legislature put in place. The law says lowest bidder right now. Until that changes DOTD cannot break the law.
Posted on 1/28/25 at 8:40 am to Power-Dome
A good run of asphalt is long lasting. In my neighborhood, the roads are asphalt but one section must have been laid with the crappiest mix ever. The top layer is basically gone with rocks jutting up through it. It’s only this bad on about a 100 yard stretch so methinks it’s an end of day, threw some crap together kind of pour and finish the job. Happens to be right next to my driveway. Grrrrrr. 
Posted on 1/28/25 at 9:45 am to SoFlaGuy
quote:
So why don’t Operators start designing?
Because they are too busy playing on TikTok and sleeping in the control room lol
Posted on 1/28/25 at 9:52 am to Power-Dome
When you say "most" are you referring to subdivision streets or higher traffic collectors and arterials? Interstates? 94% of paved roadways in the US are surfaced with asphalt concrete. Portland cement concrete is typically used on heavy truck routes or intersections.
Edge/corner cracking on local streets with PCC is often caused by under designed or under constructed slab thickness. People underestimate the weight of fully loaded garbage trucks, debris vehicles, and concrete trucks. Differential settlement along the edge is usually a result of insufficient shoulder/curb tie-in. Faulting between slabs is caused by water intrusion and the pumping of fines from under the joint.
Many development contracts require the developer to repair the roadways within the development at the end of the last phase of construction. PCC may be selected as a means to get through construction without have to rebuild the road. Whether the developer chooses AC or PCC, it is often under designed for the subgrade/base materials.
Edge/corner cracking on local streets with PCC is often caused by under designed or under constructed slab thickness. People underestimate the weight of fully loaded garbage trucks, debris vehicles, and concrete trucks. Differential settlement along the edge is usually a result of insufficient shoulder/curb tie-in. Faulting between slabs is caused by water intrusion and the pumping of fines from under the joint.
Many development contracts require the developer to repair the roadways within the development at the end of the last phase of construction. PCC may be selected as a means to get through construction without have to rebuild the road. Whether the developer chooses AC or PCC, it is often under designed for the subgrade/base materials.
Posted on 1/28/25 at 10:06 am to winkchance
quote:
DOTD has to follow the law the legislature put in place. The law says lowest bidder right now. Until that changes DOTD cannot break the law.
DOTD writes the bid spec. They don’t have to go with the cheaper option if it’s not what they specify.
Posted on 1/28/25 at 10:39 am to Power-Dome
Either concrete or asphalt are probably great if put down on a good foundation.
The road to my farm in Sumter county is horrible. That area was once the shoreline of a shallow sea during the Cretaceous period. There are some type of mussel that is about 6-7" wide that is over 100 million years old that I disk up almost every year. There is a place a few miles north of me called Shark Tooth Creek that after every rain you can go into and find hundreds of shark teeth..
The soil is very chalky. High PH of 7-8.5 pH. The soil is so soft that the roads will litteraly fall apart and slide into the ditches. Highway 17 is one of the worst. The state has to work the giant cracks that form on it 2-3 times a year. I was following a little car like a Civic or something and their front passengers tire went in the crack, got stuck, and snatched the entire axle and tire off the car.
It is paved with asphalt but I doubt concrete would be any better.
The road to my farm in Sumter county is horrible. That area was once the shoreline of a shallow sea during the Cretaceous period. There are some type of mussel that is about 6-7" wide that is over 100 million years old that I disk up almost every year. There is a place a few miles north of me called Shark Tooth Creek that after every rain you can go into and find hundreds of shark teeth..
The soil is very chalky. High PH of 7-8.5 pH. The soil is so soft that the roads will litteraly fall apart and slide into the ditches. Highway 17 is one of the worst. The state has to work the giant cracks that form on it 2-3 times a year. I was following a little car like a Civic or something and their front passengers tire went in the crack, got stuck, and snatched the entire axle and tire off the car.
It is paved with asphalt but I doubt concrete would be any better.
Posted on 1/28/25 at 11:22 am to alphaandomega
quote:
The state has to work the giant cracks that form on it 2-3 times a year. I was following a little car like a Civic or something and their front passengers tire went in the crack, got stuck, and snatched the entire axle and tire off the car.
When that happens, who pays your insurance or the state?
Posted on 1/28/25 at 11:24 am to Power-Dome
Asphalt becomes somewhat malleable when it gets hot. Tire friction from braking or accelerating causes bumps to form. Also, it is more likely to create a pot hole when the soil below is undermined by water.
I've found that the best roads down here are concrete with asphalt on top. However, cold temperatures will create gaps in the asphalt at the concrete joints because water freezes and expands.
I've found that the best roads down here are concrete with asphalt on top. However, cold temperatures will create gaps in the asphalt at the concrete joints because water freezes and expands.
Posted on 1/28/25 at 11:25 am to Tarps99
quote:
When that happens, who pays your insurance or the state?
Probably private. I doubt the state paying for that.
Its a really poor area so they probably didnt have insurance anyway. It was something to see though... from 60 MPH to dead stop in just a few feet.
Posted on 1/28/25 at 11:49 am to Galactic Inquisitor
I’m really glad the old Portland cement highways have been slowly covered in asphalt or entirely rebuilt. I’m sure they were great for a long time. But the continuous thunk thunk thunk thunk you get when driving an old section of concrete highway that’s settled and gotten misaligned is enough to drive a person mad. Every now and again you still find one and it feels like my car might fall apart.
This post was edited on 1/28/25 at 11:51 am
Posted on 1/28/25 at 11:51 am to lostinbr
quote:
DOTD writes the bid spec. They don’t have to go with the cheaper option if it’s not what they specify.
DOTD has plenty of jobs that spec concrete. the entire I-10 flyover is concrete.
Posted on 1/28/25 at 11:59 am to winkchance
quote:
DOTD has plenty of jobs that spec concrete. the entire I-10 flyover is concrete.
I’m aware. Which was my entire point - it’s nonsensical to point to state law as the reason they’re using asphalt elsewhere.
Posted on 1/28/25 at 12:05 pm to Tarps99
quote:
The rest of the 16 cent gas tax goes to Transportation Trust Fund for DOTD spend on highways and maintenance and a time state police. Some estimates point that an increase of 14 cents per gallon is needed to bring that tax even with inflation to 1990’s funding levels.
DOTD itself is also funded by the transportation fund.
Posted on 1/28/25 at 12:07 pm to Power-Dome
Louisiana can’t afford to use concrete… maintenance to high and needs to be fixed almost immediately
Posted on 1/28/25 at 12:10 pm to Power-Dome
Asphalt is the cheaper upfront cost, but won't last as long and needs more continuous maintenance.
Concrete is more expensive upfront, but lasts longer and doesn't need as much continuous maintenance.
As others have said, subsurface conditions matter regardless of pavement types. Poor soils mean both will have problems. Both would perform a lot better if 1. Improve the existing soil via surcharge and wick drains to get the moisture out and let it settle, and, 2., increase the thickness of the aggregate subbase layers. Both of these would make the cost per mile skyrocket and you'd never get new roads.
Concrete is more expensive upfront, but lasts longer and doesn't need as much continuous maintenance.
As others have said, subsurface conditions matter regardless of pavement types. Poor soils mean both will have problems. Both would perform a lot better if 1. Improve the existing soil via surcharge and wick drains to get the moisture out and let it settle, and, 2., increase the thickness of the aggregate subbase layers. Both of these would make the cost per mile skyrocket and you'd never get new roads.
Posted on 1/28/25 at 12:53 pm to TSmith
quote:
I’ve often wondered this. Lightly traveled neighborhood streets in New Orleans should all be converted over time to asphalt. I have a civil engineering degree, but I think it is just common sense. A surface that flexes is obviously better than divided concrete, which causes violent collisions with your wheels as you go down the road. Properly constructed, though, requires a very thick layer (20 inches?).
Would like to know where said CE degree came from. 20" layer for neighborhood streets????
Posted on 1/28/25 at 1:33 pm to thegambler
quote:I’ve said it before, DOTD under Bel Edwards has been MIA since the gas tax failed a number of years ago. They’re still Mia under the HCAIC. These mother
Louisiana has a 40-year old gas tax. That's all that funds roads. Texas dedicates much more to its roads, such as tolls.
Frickers can’t (won’t) scoop the trash from an interstate bridge or drain a dangerous water pocket due to shoulder sod buildup alongside an interstate.
The gd state offices in N La were closed all last week due to snow…..zero snow north of Alexandria, state offices remained closed.
Why are La taxpayers ok giving the La gov more money?
This post was edited on 1/28/25 at 1:35 pm
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