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2
Posted on 10/31/18 at 11:19 pm to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
Everything they experience in society is a product of a western society based on Judeo-Christian ideas. In order for your hypothesis to be true you would have to drop your kids off in an uninhabited desert island and come back in 20 years to them having developed a deep understanding of moral conduct.
There’s truth to that I agree. Those truths by and large exist internationally to varying degrees, and what we’d call modernity seems to be the biggest driving force in morality in the western world currently I’d argue. Christianity in and of itself has plenty of flaws, things that we’d find immoral, and it has driven many atrocities in the past. The western world is shedding religion at a fast pace but I don’t think we’re become less moral, the opposite actually.
Posted on 11/1/18 at 12:17 am to LandPhil
quote:
I say yes. Morality provides a distinction between right and wrong, and that line doesn’t muddy just because someone is an atheist. You don’t need a higher power to know that treating other people the way you would like to be treated is a fairly decent way to go about your daily life.
You are basing this thought on your presumption of man made laws as a set of guidelines. Man made laws have origins based on supernatural beliefs. Without the higher power of good vs evil, how is treating you like a long lost pal any different than punching you in the face?
Posted on 11/1/18 at 5:30 am to CivilTiger83
quote:
So objectively if Hitler had won we would all agree trying to exterminate the Jewish race was morally right?
If he had the power to maintain that belief, sure. Might is right is the human way.
Posted on 11/1/18 at 5:34 am to jim712
quote:
Had to jump in here. As someone who has lectured and published four books on religion, yes of course, you can have morality and ethics without religion.
The bigger question for me is not can you teach morality without religion... of course you can.
On what basis can you teach morality if there is no higher power? Morality would just be a myth or a pure social construct correct?
Posted on 11/1/18 at 5:48 am to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
All of these beliefs were created and disseminated through religious societies. I’m saying this as a person who is very skeptical of the existence of god. But you just can’t deny that religion produced our current moral system.
The closest experiment to removing religious morality from society was Marxism. Then the state became “god” and the distributor of morality. That ended in the deaths of millions.
Agreed WaWa. The agnostics/atheists take the question to ask if they are moral people even if God is dead to them. That is not the question.
The question is, what is the basis for morality if there is no higher power? There have been zero complete answers on this, despite having some very intelligent agnostic/atheists on here.
The one person on the agnostic/atheist side who answered truthfully admitted that there is no absolute moral basis for condemning the Holocaust based on the atheistic/agnostic worldview. We all fundamentally know that it was a moral catastrophe, and yet you have no philosophical base on which to condemn such an action as absolutely morally wrong.
Posted on 11/1/18 at 6:28 am to LandPhil
No, only people that make sure everyone knows they loved that sermon this morning have morals. Everyone knows that. Especially Catholics. And anyone without catholic school and ACTS decals on rear window of car is just pretending. Bonus points for scapulas and saying grace at restaurants.
Posted on 11/1/18 at 6:32 am to LandPhil
quote:
Can you teach a child morality without religion?
Not really bc you need a basis for morality
Posted on 11/1/18 at 6:34 am to LandPhil
Issue is you need 2 sources of morality. at some time the child will ignore what you have taught her.
Posted on 11/1/18 at 7:08 am to CivilTiger83
quote:
The question is, what is the basis for morality if there is no higher power? There have been zero complete answers on this, despite having some very intelligent agnostic/atheists on here.
That is correct. And the justification so far has been.... “well I raised my kid without religion and he is moral”
That is totally irrelevant. The child was raised in western society which is deeply rooted in Judeo-Christian values.
You can see the chaos we are already devolving into without a moral compass. Social Justice Warriors, infinite genders, hate speech, etc.
They want to create their own moral system, their own religion. This quickly devolves into the loss of our rights as individuals and the fact that we are no longer “equal under god”. This leads to communism. Then dictatorship. Then death and distruction. No this is not pessimistic. This is a FACT. This experiment has already been tried before.
Posted on 11/1/18 at 7:08 am to WaWaWeeWa
So is it impossible to teach morals without religion? Maybe in a bubble under the umbrella of western society’s religious core values. As a blueprint for society? No one has ever done it, so people on here are going to have to provide more evidence then they have.
Posted on 11/1/18 at 7:16 am to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
No one has ever done it, so people on here are going to have to provide more evidence then they have.
Humans have been around ~150,000 years. We’ve only been writing for ~10,000 I’d say someone has done it.
Posted on 11/1/18 at 7:22 am to CivilTiger83
quote:
On what basis can you teach morality if there is no higher power?
For most people, the law.
Others, some philosophical belief.
Religion is philosophy. No one is just arbitrarily altruistic and moral.
No matter what philosophy, the overriding and common thread seems to be what we know as the golden rule.
This post was edited on 11/1/18 at 7:24 am
Posted on 11/1/18 at 7:25 am to Masterag
quote:
Humans have been around ~150,000 years. We’ve only been writing for ~10,000 I’d say someone has done it.
This is your proof?
You think humans, pre writing, produced better morals and high functioning social structures than current western society?
That’s a pretty bold claim. Don’t forget we are living in the least violent time in recorded history.
Posted on 11/1/18 at 7:27 am to CivilTiger83
quote:
On what basis can you teach morality if there is no higher power?
the same way that religions developed their codes: societal trial and error
there is a handful of basic moral tenets that pretty much all societies and religions developed. why? they're based on observations of human interactions with a design to limit conflict between humans
don't murder. don't steal. don't commit adultery. these are universal across societies/religion. since only one god can exist, and these cultures didn't interact prior to developing these basic ideas, how did the ones separated from God do it?
this ain't rocket appliances
Posted on 11/1/18 at 7:28 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
For most people, the law. Others, some philosophical belief. Religion is philosophy. No one is just arbitrarily altruistic and moral. No matter what philosophy, the overriding and common thread seems to be what we know as the golden rule.
Agree. But where did that law come from?
In addition, my entire point is that philosophy/morals created by religion is inherently more stable than morals created by man. We saw what happened when a charismatic strong man like hitler convinced a nation that his morals were better. That’s much easier in a society who’s morals were just created by the last group of people and not god.
Posted on 11/1/18 at 7:30 am to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
But where did that law come from?
Well, I think stealing and murder are fairly condemned in most cultures and philosophies. This hasn't always been the case, but mankind kind of arrives at that point in almost every society.
Posted on 11/1/18 at 7:30 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
don't murder. don't steal. don't commit adultery. these are universal across societies/religion. since only one god can exist, and these cultures didn't interact prior to developing these basic ideas, how did the ones separated from God do it? this ain't rocket appliances
And how does this particular set of morals remain stable throughout time?.... If we all agree there is no higher power that determines them and it’s just about who has the best argument for their morals?
It’s much more rocket appliance than you think. That’s what scary about this, you all are so confident with very little evidence and the privilege of living in the least violent most moral society THAT WAS FOUNDED ON CORE RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLES!
It’s quite ironic
This post was edited on 11/1/18 at 7:32 am
Posted on 11/1/18 at 7:36 am to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
And how does this particular set of morals remain stable throughout time?
the basics of society really hasn't changed since society was adopted 10-12k years ago
stealing the property of another will cause the victim to seek vengeance. that increases the risk of more retaliation and societal disruption
murdering someone...same result
adultery...same result
these legal codes were instituted by societal rulers to decrease disruption and conflict within their populations
these legal codes were molded with religion to create a worldly punishment and a punishment beyond death to reinforce them
religion being separated from the ruling group is a very recent development in human history
Posted on 11/1/18 at 7:38 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Well, I think stealing and murder are fairly condemned in most cultures and philosophies. This hasn't always been the case, but mankind kind of arrives at that point in almost every society.
I’ll accept that. Is that where your morality ends? Because you left a lot of doors open.
Hitler’s Germany was probably very safe FOR GERMANS. But he was perfectly fine murdering another group of people because his morality was that the strongest race should survive. In his eyes he was acting morally to produce a stronger species.
How do you get to the point of “we are all created equal under god” without god? That’s what has lead to individual rights that you are taking for granted.
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