re: Can you teach a child morality without religion?

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In what universe would you believe genocide to be moral?

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he's trying to be clever while ignoring what i'm actually saying

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that line doesn’t muddy just because someone is an atheist

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...sure many can "get it" because the underlying layer of society is a threat to behavior that is immoral...look at abortion, that is unnatural and deadly, but millions still support it because it is legal.

In immoral upbringing, a child can be taught things that are evil and be OK with it. Like on that island off the coast of Sri Lanka...they kill and eat outsiders. There's nothing moral about that.

Thanks for the responses SlowFlowPro...

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it's based on societal trial and error, trying to minimize the disruption and conflict within societies. the supernatural aspect is just a secondary reinforcement of the values

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So the goal of morality is the minimization of disruption and conflict? Based on your stated goal of morality and your example of priests raping children... shouldn't your definition of morality dictate that we not try to seek justice for the victims? That would just disrupt and add to conflict wouldn't it?

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how do you address the morality of the Catholic Church hiding the rape of innocent children?

we are human. Nazis were human. the raping Catholic priests are human. those in power above the priests who hid the crimes are human. power affects us. our group identification is stronger than almost anything in our genetic makeup. power and group ID can lead humans to do horrible things.

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Under your standard, if a society has decided something is not morally wrong, does morality change? If Germany had won, wouldn't we all be agreeing that the Holocaust was a good thing?

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it's pretty clear they were wrong, both in the present and historical context

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So your justification for it being absolutely morally wrong is that it was "clear they were wrong"? What are you basing that on? Maybe your own innate morality? Are you saying that what the Nazi's did was a violation of absolute morality?

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he's trying to be clever while ignoring what i'm actually saying

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Must be. I was about to ask you if I'm crazy. Either way this thread is lost and I weep for our future if people are legitimately asking who are we to judge the German Nazi regime for being immoral.

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CivilTiger83

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They don’t understand that they are arguing for moral relativism.

The correct question for them is.... can you avoid moral relativism WITHOUT a higher power?

And before they answer that most important question we would all have to agree that moral relativism doesn’t work, that might be harder than we think

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But that's not true...in Christianity, Jesus let's you know all aren't equal in our world, then in the afterlife...that peacemakers are held in high regard and that rich men have slim chances in the world beyond...that's not equality.

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I’m not arguing for or against Christianity

I’m saying that without “a higher power” that is indisputable we can’t create complex universal morals to avoid moral relativism.

That higher power could be “Mother Nature” for all I care.

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So the goal of morality is the minimization of disruption and conflict?

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the stated goal? no

the actual goal of what created morality? yes

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shouldn't your definition of morality dictate that we not try to seek justice for the victims?

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why? you have to punish the antisocial behaviors to create reinforcement for future actors to comprehend the results of their action

using punishment and positive reinforcement is basic behaviorism

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Under your standard, if a society has decided something is not morally wrong, does morality change? If Germany had won, wouldn't we all be agreeing that the Holocaust was a good thing?

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immoral regimes have been toppled before, often because the immorality creates the avenue for chaos that ultimately consumes the leadership. that's why you don't see many long-lasting societies based on these irrational belief systems

i mean this concept, within the concept of empire and expansion, is at least as old as the Persians

even ancient warring empires like the Assyrians had a strong legal code of conduct, to create order and avoid chaos. it was self-serving, for the reasons i stated above

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So your justification for it being absolutely morally wrong is that it was "clear they were wrong"?

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through historical analysis and reason. the same way we developed all of our morality

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What are you basing that on?

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history
societal trial and error
morality

that's what all morality is ultimately based on, and has been based on since humans formed the concept of society

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Are you saying that what the Nazi's did was a violation of absolute morality?

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no

i'm saying what they did was chaotic and irrational and only could work in the short term, based on what we know of human history

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Man may have made the change but the statement “we are all equal under god” or “god made us all equal” can’t exist WITHOUT GOD in the equation.

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in terms of words, yes. the problem is that's also not the only way these terms were described. you're cherry picking

in terms of application, however, god is irrelevant

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So tell me how we get to “we are equal” without god?

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how did we live under Christianity for 3x the time without equality if its the concept of God in that religion?

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In what universe would you believe genocide of a benign people to be moral?

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This is not about my beliefs... it's about the basis of morality. My personal belief system has a moral basis to condemn what the Nazis did.

The Nazi's believed that they were the pure race, and non-pure races should be purged. They created a new morality, and it had logic behind it.

On what basis does an atheist morally condemn such an action? They believe this is necessary evolutionary progress. Who are you to say otherwise?

The only honest agnostic/atheist on this thread pointed out that he had no absolute moral basis to condemn Nazi germany and the Holocaust.