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Message
re: Can an engineer or lithium battery expert make me feel better?
Posted on 8/2/24 at 8:49 am to CAD703X
Posted on 8/2/24 at 8:49 am to CAD703X
quote:
How safe are these batteries especially ones sold on Amazon from China?
The batteries themselves are seldom the problem, in many cases they are simply reused Samsung or LG cells.
quote:
What is trigger(s) that causes them to spark?
Old or worn out cells used in "new" products, insufficient or non-existent battery management built into the battery packs and devices using them, battery chargers that don't have proper management and feedback controls. Basically the reason why knock-off batteries are so cheap is because they are using old cells and have virtually nothing as far as charging management and load balancing.
Also, name brand batteries can be wrecked by knock-off chargers and you can set off a thermal runaway using a quality battery and charger by charging them in an enclosed space where heat builds up or a battery was dropped and damaged but put back on the charger anyway.
0
Posted on 8/2/24 at 8:50 am to CAD703X
quote:Really, really safe.
Lifepo4
Posted on 8/2/24 at 8:50 am to CAD703X
quote:
and there's a whole army of tik-tok morons who are now wetting a towel and draping it over their tesla plug when supercharging to make the sensor read lower temps and charge faster and effectively override the temp failsafe.
Well that’s pretty damned stupid.
And of course their families will blame Tesla after their idiot loved ones kill themselves by bypassing the car’s safety features.
Posted on 8/2/24 at 8:56 am to CAD703X
There's a reason lithium ion batteries are not allowed to be shipped on passenger aircraft.
Posted on 8/2/24 at 8:58 am to CAD703X
quote:
That's kind of my point.
I have Lifepo4 batteries in my golf cart, a shelf full of lion tool batteries and an electric car in my garage.
I would not willingly tell people this.
Posted on 8/2/24 at 9:08 am to kywildcatfanone
quote:why not? the golf cart lead acid batteries died in the winter when it got down below zero for several days and i had to throw them out. lifepo4 was a great solution and i only needed to buy 2 to get the same range as i was getting from 6 before.
I would not willingly tell people this.
i have an entire collection of yard tools that work with the same ego batteries and have zero issues.
i also have dewalt and Milwaukee tools that need batteries.
and we own a tesla as a secondary car.
not sure what your point is; other than the golf cart i imagine there are tons of people just like me.
This post was edited on 8/2/24 at 9:10 am
Posted on 8/2/24 at 9:17 am to CAD703X
quote:
my stash of ego batteries
Ego batteries?
Posted on 8/2/24 at 9:18 am to CAD703X
I have some domain expertise. Some general guidelines:
1. Lithium Ion (LiON) batteries are the ones you have to worry about, the higher the AH rating the more cautious you need to be. Always make sure you have Samsung, LG, Panasonic or other "name" cells. LiFePo and other production chemistries are nowhere near as volatile.
2. Every bit as important as name brand cells is the battery management system (BMS). Major international names like Bosch, Dewalt, Milwaukee, non-Chinese automakers, non-Chinese auto industry suppliers who also do e-bikes like Brose or Mahle, all understand this and put immense effort into BMS failsafes, both HW and SW.
3. If lithium is exposed, it WILL burn, and there's no stopping it. ALWAYS take batteries with the slightest physical damage to a recycler.
4. State of charge doesn't matter, a LiON battery can go at any time. HOWEVER, don't be stupid and leave them on the charger for any longer than they need to be. You're just begging to find a coffin corner set of circumstances that the OEM couldn't foresee. A company that I worked for had only one "thermal event" in its history, when a customer left the battery on the charger for TWO YEARS. Fortunately, all the passive and active safety tricks we spent millions engineering into the pack and BMS worked, and all he had was about $4k of smoke damage to sheetrock. There was about 5x the energy in that pack that Elevator Vader had in his pack.
5. Did I mention to stay the F away from no-name cheap-arse crap, almost all of which is from China? You're the critter who will be crispy, its your call.
If I get around to reading the rest of this thread, I may edit to add more.
1. Lithium Ion (LiON) batteries are the ones you have to worry about, the higher the AH rating the more cautious you need to be. Always make sure you have Samsung, LG, Panasonic or other "name" cells. LiFePo and other production chemistries are nowhere near as volatile.
2. Every bit as important as name brand cells is the battery management system (BMS). Major international names like Bosch, Dewalt, Milwaukee, non-Chinese automakers, non-Chinese auto industry suppliers who also do e-bikes like Brose or Mahle, all understand this and put immense effort into BMS failsafes, both HW and SW.
3. If lithium is exposed, it WILL burn, and there's no stopping it. ALWAYS take batteries with the slightest physical damage to a recycler.
4. State of charge doesn't matter, a LiON battery can go at any time. HOWEVER, don't be stupid and leave them on the charger for any longer than they need to be. You're just begging to find a coffin corner set of circumstances that the OEM couldn't foresee. A company that I worked for had only one "thermal event" in its history, when a customer left the battery on the charger for TWO YEARS. Fortunately, all the passive and active safety tricks we spent millions engineering into the pack and BMS worked, and all he had was about $4k of smoke damage to sheetrock. There was about 5x the energy in that pack that Elevator Vader had in his pack.
5. Did I mention to stay the F away from no-name cheap-arse crap, almost all of which is from China? You're the critter who will be crispy, its your call.
If I get around to reading the rest of this thread, I may edit to add more.
Posted on 8/2/24 at 9:32 am to CAD703X
Runaway can be from poor battery management but it is much more likely a physical defect or damage. That video was a combination of poor batteries and really bad luck.
High performance nickel magnesium cobalt types are far more susceptible to thermal runaway than other types.
Any battery sold through retail channels or in toys/bikes/scooters is highly likely to be defective or counterfeit.
Batteries in EVs are safer than gas engines and their associated systems.
If you’re super concerned, Lithium Iron Phosphate cells have 4x the life and safety at the expense of energy density and a little more cold weather performance loss. Tesla standard range EVs use this tech. Ford, GM, and BMW are expected to make the switch in a couple years. Most home/marine pre-built packs are also LIFePO4.
NMC: Better density and cold weather performance. Degrades some when left at 100% charge, recommend 80%.
LiFePO4: Safer, longer service life. Also can be left near 100% charge for longer periods without harm.
Also, all of the very best batteries and management systems come from China. Unfortunately, so do the worst and the best don’t sell to little guys.
High performance nickel magnesium cobalt types are far more susceptible to thermal runaway than other types.
Any battery sold through retail channels or in toys/bikes/scooters is highly likely to be defective or counterfeit.
Batteries in EVs are safer than gas engines and their associated systems.
If you’re super concerned, Lithium Iron Phosphate cells have 4x the life and safety at the expense of energy density and a little more cold weather performance loss. Tesla standard range EVs use this tech. Ford, GM, and BMW are expected to make the switch in a couple years. Most home/marine pre-built packs are also LIFePO4.
NMC: Better density and cold weather performance. Degrades some when left at 100% charge, recommend 80%.
LiFePO4: Safer, longer service life. Also can be left near 100% charge for longer periods without harm.
Also, all of the very best batteries and management systems come from China. Unfortunately, so do the worst and the best don’t sell to little guys.
This post was edited on 8/2/24 at 9:35 am
Posted on 8/2/24 at 9:36 am to Dallaswho
quote:horseshite.
Batteries in EVs are safer than gas engines and their associated systems.
Posted on 8/2/24 at 9:38 am to CAD703X
quote:
Can an engineer or lithium battery expert make me feel better?
Engineers - no. We have the least empathy of any profession.
Posted on 8/2/24 at 9:41 am to CAD703X
This should make you feel better....
These large batteries (EVs) are a terrorists wet dream.
And an Amazon delivery drone can be changed to a grenade toting suicide drone with zero modification.
Have a nice day! 0,o
These large batteries (EVs) are a terrorists wet dream.
And an Amazon delivery drone can be changed to a grenade toting suicide drone with zero modification.
Have a nice day! 0,o
Posted on 8/2/24 at 9:51 am to CAD703X
Should I not store my Noco eco boost xl 1500 lithium charger in my truck, especially during summer?
Posted on 8/2/24 at 9:51 am to CAD703X
There's a huge difference between the cheap Chinese knock offs and good shite. From the way they are constructed to the energy storage management systems.
I don't mess with any smaller batteries, but have plenty of experience with home, utility scale and EV storage systems and I can tell you the UL, NEC and NFPA testing they go through is rigorous. I've seen a PowerWall2 submerged in water and shot with nail guns and it wouldn't induce a thermal event.
I have zero concerns with my OEM dewalt, milwaukee or ego batteries.
I don't mess with any smaller batteries, but have plenty of experience with home, utility scale and EV storage systems and I can tell you the UL, NEC and NFPA testing they go through is rigorous. I've seen a PowerWall2 submerged in water and shot with nail guns and it wouldn't induce a thermal event.
I have zero concerns with my OEM dewalt, milwaukee or ego batteries.
This post was edited on 8/2/24 at 9:54 am
Posted on 8/2/24 at 10:00 am to CAD703X
The only reason it is on your mind is due to the media. It is akin to the squatter issue as it isnt as big of a deal as the media makes it to be. The camhance of something happening isnt zero either
Posted on 8/2/24 at 10:00 am to Dallaswho
quote:
Batteries in EVs are safer than gas engines and their associated systems.
Oh?
Posted on 8/2/24 at 10:07 am to TigerHornII
quote:
There was about 5x the energy in that pack that Elevator Vader had in his pack
i feel bad laughing at thatPosted on 8/2/24 at 10:08 am to TigerHornII
thank you! thats exactly what i wanted to know quote:
Did I mention to stay the F away from no-name cheap-arse crap, almost all of which is from China? You're the critter who will be crispy, its your call.
yep, and i'm looking for an extra BIG arse 7.5ah for my mower so even more reason to not play games with that much power in a box the size of the palm of my hand
Posted on 8/2/24 at 10:28 am to TigerHornII
quote:
Every bit as important as name brand cells is the battery management system (BMS). Major international names like Bosch, Dewalt, Milwaukee
Can’t speak for other brands but none of my DeWalt batteries have any protection. They’re pinned straight to the tabs with just a little balancer.
Posted on 8/2/24 at 10:47 am to TigerHornII
So basically y’all are saying, leaving my four or five Battery chargers in my uncooled garage, and leaving the batteries on them all the time is not a good idea.
This thread and that video which I had seen a few days ago, have me scared straight.
I may never ride an elevator with other people again.
This thread and that video which I had seen a few days ago, have me scared straight.
I may never ride an elevator with other people again.
This post was edited on 8/2/24 at 10:52 am
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