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re: B-17 collides/crashes with another plane at Dallas air show.

Posted on 11/14/22 at 7:23 pm to
Posted by wallowinit
Louisiana
Member since Dec 2006
17024 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 7:23 pm to
quote:

flying them into the ground

I don't think that was the case here.

With the amount in museums I assert that they will keep flying the ones that are airworthy until such time as they stop doing it. With the last few they'll most likely not participate in such events and only fly them like they do the oldest flying airplanes.
Posted by SG_Geaux
Beautiful St George, LA
Member since Aug 2004
80184 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 7:36 pm to
quote:

didn't say never fly them. I said fly them LESS often.


They are either air worthy or they aren't
Posted by RedFoxx
New Orleans, LA
Member since Jan 2009
6599 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 8:01 pm to
quote:

I didn't say never fly them. I said fly them LESS often.


An argument could be made that by flying them less often the pilots’ proficiency could regress.

Qualified =/= proficient
Posted by METAL
Member since Nov 2020
1541 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 8:11 pm to
Not only that but planes that sit too long tend to have big shite break too. Gotta keep the juices flowing.
Posted by GeauxxxTigers23
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
62514 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 8:14 pm to
quote:

I didn't say never fly them. I said fly them LESS often.


Planes break when they sit on the ground a lot more often than they break in the air.
Posted by METAL
Member since Nov 2020
1541 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 8:16 pm to
Without fail, in threads like these jackasses show up every time pretending like they know more than 777
Posted by Traveler
I'm not late-I'm early for tomorrow
Member since Sep 2003
26075 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 8:34 pm to
quote:

Not only that but planes that sit too long tend to have big shite break too.

We are kind of getting off topic here but, that's why manufacturers include short and long term preservation and return to service procedures in their maintenance publications to minimize the adverse effects of storage.
This post was edited on 11/15/22 at 2:16 am
Posted by choppadocta
Louisiana
Member since May 2014
2384 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 8:44 pm to
Yeah they do have short term and long term storage but how do you pickle a relay? Sitting is the worst thing for an aircraft, especially one's with lots of mechanical relays and switches.
Posted by Traveler
I'm not late-I'm early for tomorrow
Member since Sep 2003
26075 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 8:53 pm to
Those old Cutler Hammer mechanical relays were impossible to preserve internally. You just have to do what you can to keep that area moisture free as much as possible.
Back to the OP.
This post was edited on 11/15/22 at 2:15 am
Posted by TigersnJeeps
FL Panhandle
Member since Jan 2021
2616 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 9:05 pm to
A review and synopsis by "blancolirio" on YT.

He does these after most aircraft incidents...

He knew the P-63 and one of the B-17 pilots....

blancolirio
This post was edited on 11/14/22 at 9:22 pm
Posted by brass2mouth
NOLA
Member since Jul 2007
20395 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 9:07 pm to
quote:

I said fly them LESS often.


A couple dozen times a year at air shows is too much? It’s not like they’re making trips across the continental US daily.
Posted by LSUPilot07
Member since Feb 2022
7837 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 9:18 pm to
The age of the aircraft doesn’t matter it’s all about how it’s maintained. The few B-17’s still airworthy usually have a small dedicated army of people who keep it in running condition. They get a lot more attention to fly just for air shows and the like than your normal 777 would that is in the air flying all over the world regularly. Sometimes bad things just happen not just in aviation but life in general.
Posted by Wolfhound45
Member since Nov 2009
125446 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 10:14 pm to
Posted by WWII Collector
Member since Oct 2018
8541 posts
Posted on 11/15/22 at 12:46 am to



Amazing the people that you meet in life.

This post was edited on 11/15/22 at 1:05 am
Posted by WWII Collector
Member since Oct 2018
8541 posts
Posted on 11/15/22 at 1:12 am to
I am searching for my photo of the Navigator seat which was obliterated in that photo... The Pilots look like they missed the prop, but had a fleeting image of the ground...




I am searching for my former post and have to review this thread tomorrow...

What is the most probable cause... I suspect the cobra mis-performed on the turn...

Home Again.. (Time) Pink FLoyd..
This post was edited on 11/15/22 at 1:43 am
Posted by WWII Collector
Member since Oct 2018
8541 posts
Posted on 11/15/22 at 1:32 am to
One of the crew was sitting right here... As many a Navigator before him.

This post was edited on 11/15/22 at 1:39 am
Posted by WWII Collector
Member since Oct 2018
8541 posts
Posted on 11/15/22 at 2:07 am to
quote:

The p-63 pilot lost situational awareness.



Or it went into a skid and mis-performed... But I admit the video shows that he cut in real close at such an angle to the turn of the rest of airplanes... Hot Doggin' they called it...
Posted by IceTiger
Really hot place
Member since Oct 2007
26584 posts
Posted on 11/15/22 at 5:47 am to
quote:

Or it went into a skid and mis-performed... But I admit the video shows that he cut in real close at such an angle to the turn of the rest of airplanes... Hot Doggin' they called it..


I think there were several causal factors from first glance.

1. Plans include flying at the same altitude.
2. Plans have the bombers too low (more of a NFWOD)
3. Appropriate assessment of weather may not have been reviewed.
4. P-63 pilot likely became fixated on formation lead.
5. P-63 pilot did not keep adequate view of bomber.
6. Air controller (boss) did not identify/communicate crash risk.

NFWODS
1. P- aircraft's field of vision is limited directly ahead and below.
2. At 500 feet there is little adjustment room for any aircraft.

This post was edited on 11/15/22 at 5:49 am
Posted by PJinAtl
Atlanta
Member since Nov 2007
13917 posts
Posted on 11/15/22 at 6:27 am to
quote:

High dollar classic cars are not used as daily drivers however. And rare WWII planes shouldn't be used as amusement park rides.


I think here is where you have a major catch-22. As you yourself have stated, upkeep and maintenance on these birds isn't cheap. Even if you are going to use them as static ground exhibits, you still have to fly them to and from the airshows to be ground exhibits.

That flight time means you have upkeep and maintenance costs, without any real means of offsetting them. So the "amusement park rides," piece is somewhat necessary to cover the cost of keeping the old birds in the air.
Posted by 0x15E
Outer Space
Member since Sep 2020
14735 posts
Posted on 11/15/22 at 6:52 am to
(no message)
This post was edited on 11/15/22 at 6:53 am
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