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Started By
Message
re: Ark Encounter in Kentucky (mostly not travel-related)
Posted on 5/9/23 at 1:46 am to sumtimeitbeslikedat
Posted on 5/9/23 at 1:46 am to sumtimeitbeslikedat
quote:
Young earth
I listened to this one but found one thing odd given the OP. The theme seems to be the crutch used by evolutionists is time with the idea that with millions of years we can imagine anything happening. The picture in the OP seems to suggest you only need two (small) dinosaur of a single specie with the logical conclusion being that those two begat all the other species of dinosaurs. He suggests Noah lived a little over 3,500 years ago (based on his World History Timeline). I don't understand how in that short period of time all the myriad dinosaur species came to be and became extinct, was there more intervention by God (if so why did Noah need to save any animals), was there some wicked fast evolution, or does Ken Ham's view just not jive at all with the Ark Encounter view?
1
Posted on 5/9/23 at 8:31 am to Obtuse1
I think some of those questions we may never know for sure bc we weren’t there. What we can be confident of, though, is that the entire genetic code of the Earth at that time was represented and preserved on the Ark. And that the animals on there could breed and replicate their specific genetic codes. There were clear and distinct genetic dividers that made each kind of animal unique and uniquely able to preserve their kind.
Posted on 5/9/23 at 8:44 am to LittleJerrySeinfield
quote:
I'm guessing this thread is filled with folks that believe reptiles once had feathers.
I’m guessing that this thread is filled with a majority of people who think that all forms of life on this planet “evolved” from a single cell amoeba. But, yeah, intelligent design is “untenable.”
Romans 1:18–32 (NASB95): 18 ?For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24 ?Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 ?For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28 ?And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
Posted on 5/9/23 at 9:04 am to BowlJackson
quote:
So if Noah only saved 2 of every "kind" of animal instead of 2 of every "species", then does the vast biodiversity of species today mean that evolution is also canon in the christian worldview?
One can believe in the biblical account of creation and still believe that changes occur over time in breeding and adaptation. It’s not evolution in the sense of what people think that means, but change that occurs over time through breeding. The Chihuahua and German Shepherd are both descendants of the wolf, and I’ll go one further. Every single one of us are descendants of one common ancestor, Adam. Scientists even believe that’s true, that we all share a common ancestor. Scripture simply names that person, and couple. Now how is it that we all differ so much in complexion and features? The same breeding over many years. When a society finds certain attributes more attractive and desirable, it over time becomes evident in all of that society, especially when those societies are separated from outside influences. It drives appearances.
Posted on 5/9/23 at 9:20 am to BayouBlitz
quote:
Where did the water come from? Where did go?
Posted on 5/9/23 at 9:28 am to sumtimeitbeslikedat
quote:
And, BTW to tell someone who grew up in public school in this day and age, and then went on to get a liberal degree at a secular university, that they have no idea what the theory of evolution is or how it’s supposed to “work” is a poorly thought comeback.
Yes you clearly demonstrated that by wondering why no half monkey, half neanderthal hybrids were walking around.
You definitely have a firm grasp on Theory.
quote:
challenge that you are not knowledgeable enough on intelligent design’s argument to make a statement of any weight against it.
There is no science involved in intelligent design. The crux of it is, no matter how reductive you want to be, that "God did it".
There is literally no science or testing behind it whatsoever.
Everything that AnswersInGenesis and IRC does is so easily refutable to anyone with even rudimentary scientific knowledge that it is laughable.
Posted on 5/9/23 at 9:32 am to Mike da Tigah
quote:
Every single one of us are descendants of one common ancestor, Adam. Scientists even believe that’s true, that we all share a common ancestor.
There are theorized and tested to be Y-Chromosome Adam and Mitochondrial Eve, but they lived 1000s of years apart.
Posted on 5/9/23 at 9:41 am to sumtimeitbeslikedat
quote:
What we can be confident of, though, is that the entire genetic code of the Earth at that time was represented and preserved on the Ark.
Without some divine intervention the biodiversity on the size of ship the ark was would have to have been very limited especially when you consider they would have had to have enough of the specific diets for each specie to last the entire 1 year-plus voyage. There would have had to be a second round of creation or some extremely quick evolution to reach the biodiversity we have today in only ~3500 years.
Posted on 5/9/23 at 9:42 am to Obtuse1
We have a little thing called genetics, and we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that most species cannot be traced back to a singular pair. Cheetahs for instance prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. It can actually be physically tested with them beyond just genetic testing.
Posted on 5/9/23 at 10:29 am to Fun Bunch
quote:
We have a little thing called genetics, and we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that most species cannot be traced back to a singular pair. Cheetahs for instance prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. It can actually be physically tested with them beyond just genetic testing.
I don't think modern genetic science is much use in the discussion as it is not something both sides will agree on. I think it must be discussed within the framework of the "facts" presented in the Bible and very common common sense.
For example, we know the size of the ark, and even though I am unaware if the Bible mentions the beam one can use a very liberal beam for the height and length given. We know the length of time on the ark was slightly over a year. The chronology is laid out in Genesis 7-8. We know there were 8 humans on the ark. When you start grinding at the numbers, considering the room the pairs needed, the food they needed for over a year, 8 people to muck stalls (no small job) and doling out the food and water to meet each pairs needs all of this begins to beggar common sense. There are over 6,000 extant species of mammals each with different dietary and space needs. This alone would start to make the biblical dimensions of the ark look super cramped. Add birds, amphibians, and reptiles and you are approaching 40,000 species or 80,000 animals.
When the argument tries to sidestep the issue by suggesting multiple species "came" from individual pairs you have to have either a second round of creation or some incredibly fast evolution given the young earth constraints. When met with these Bible-imposed constraints the discussion usually turns to divine intervention which is not arguable, either you have faith in a/the God or you don't. There are the "centrists" that don't give up either and go the allegory route.
For the vast majority of people arguing this is a fools errand because there are a limited number of people who are on some imaginary fence. Most people have made up their mind and have faith in their position and each side has their safety valve ready for when the tide of the discussion seems to be going against their belief/faith.
Posted on 5/9/23 at 10:31 am to Obtuse1
quote:
I don't think modern genetic science is much use in the discussion as it is not something both sides will agree on. I think it must be discussed within the framework of the "facts" presented in the Bible
This is seriously a hilarious statement.
Posted on 5/9/23 at 10:39 am to Obtuse1
quote:
I think it must be discussed within the framework of the "facts" presented in the Bible and very common common sense.
Disagree, YECs are reality denying idiots and deserve to be mocked as such. This is the OT after all.
Posted on 5/9/23 at 10:51 am to CPTDCKHD
quote:
I’m guessing that this thread is filled with a majority of people who think that all forms of life on this planet “evolved” from a single cell amoeba. But, yeah, intelligent design is “untenable.”
Do you believe evolution and intelligent design are entirely mutually exclusive?
Posted on 5/9/23 at 11:04 am to el Gaucho
quote:
Christian museum
Calling this a museum is like Netflix calling that black Cleopatra show a documentary.
Posted on 5/9/23 at 11:06 am to Fun Bunch
quote:
This is seriously a hilarious statement.
Oh, I agree. You still have to find that common ground to have a fruitful discussion or you never get off the ground. It reminds me of having a classical physical optics guy and a high-energy CERN guy in the room to discuss physics you have to start the discussion either in wave or particle parlance.
Posted on 5/9/23 at 11:10 am to Obtuse1
quote:
You still have to find that common ground
There's only one way to do that.
Provide actual, testable, peer reviewed evidence.
Posted on 5/9/23 at 11:24 am to Fun Bunch
quote:
There's only one way to do that.
Provide actual, testable, peer reviewed evidence.
That ground is never going to be tenable for most creationists.
As for the poster that questioned if creation and evolution have to be mutually exclusive the general answer is no. A/The God or prime mover could have created life up to some point and evolution could have taken over from there and could have been part of the intelligent design. My issue is when you try to overlay a young earth with the bottleneck created by the ark upon bio-diversity. I only see that working with a second round of divine intervention which seems counter-intuitive to me given God is omniscient and would have known this would occur when he they did their original creation. This goes back to the paradox of an omnipowerful, omnipresent, and omniscient deity. "Simple" evolution is more comfortable to me because I don't have to do the mental gymnastics I personally need to make the alternative theories work. It all comes down to where you put your faith.
Posted on 5/9/23 at 11:24 am to Fun Bunch
quote:
You still have to find that common ground
There's only one way to do that. Provide actual, testable, peer reviewed evidence.
There is common ground is current observational science. Everything that happened prior to recorded history involves certain assumptions, either that our universe was created by a God who continues to interact with his creation or that there has never been any supernatural interaction with our universe and that we can assume that anything we observe today can be extrapolated backward for an explanation.
“Science” which has developed under the assumptions of the latter doesn’t disprove the former. Adherents to the former aren’t going to “prove” anything to those who hold to the latter.
There is the matter of recorded observations of a man who claimed to be God living after a public execution by a government very adept at such executions. If those observations are accurate, that would tend to suggest a supernatural interaction with our reality where death is otherwise permanent. Many have and will dismiss that account, but dismissal doesn’t prove it inaccurate, nor does our experience of death being permanent disprove the supernatural interaction possibility.
Posted on 5/9/23 at 12:12 pm to BowlJackson
quote:
I'm still waiting on someone to explain exactly how this layer of water floating in the atmosphere (the one that eventually fell and caused The Great Flood)
What? Dude, did you just make that up?
The water was contained under the earths crust, and burst forth from cracks. Similar to geysers still easily observable today. It started the water cycle. The run off formed the canyons, rivers, lakes, valleys etc. It also was the cause for plate shifting, giving rise to the theory of Pangaea
I mean its word for word from a 7,000 year old written account
quote:
Gen. 7:11 - the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Posted on 5/9/23 at 12:16 pm to RobbBobb
quote:
What? Dude, did you just make that up?
Somebody offered that early in the thread.
quote:
The water was contained under the earths crust, and burst forth from cracks.
Well that doesn't sound like rain at all.
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