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Message
re: AP: Parents begged cops to enter school as shooting unfolded. Cops refused
Posted on 5/26/22 at 1:35 pm to UpToPar
Posted on 5/26/22 at 1:35 pm to UpToPar
quote:
It could very well be that both are true. Two initial officers may have approached the classroom door and realized that it was locked/barricaded (by the shooter). It sounds like they tried to establish communications with students in an adjoining classroom at which point the shooter entered that classroom through the adjoining door and shot the student that cried for help. According to the student report, the cops entered the adjoining classroom at this point and exchanged gun fire with the shooter, likely resulting in the shooter retreating back into the initial class. It's likely at this point the cops evacuated the students from the adjoining room and they may have attempted to barricade the door between the two classrooms.
The testimony is framed as the confrontation is the second, follow up incident, not the first. But assuming you are right, it still leaves a huge question regarding why it would take 90 minutes to re-engage when there is no plausible or credible way for officers to 100% survey that room and verify mortality or who is or isnt inside still. Which is the excuse you are conjuring up to try and rationalize the current gap in understanding and defend the officers.
As the former officer in one of the articles said, it doesnt take 30 to 60 minutes to open a lock
Thats before discussing the idiocy of asking children to scream their location with an active shooter known to be in the vicinity.
This post was edited on 5/26/22 at 1:40 pm
2
Posted on 5/26/22 at 1:35 pm to UpToPar
(no message)
This post was edited on 5/26/22 at 1:37 pm
Posted on 5/26/22 at 1:41 pm to St Augustine
quote:
I’m sure there will be a waiting list to sign up for this job for 50k a year.
I don’t want cowards that won’t lay down their lives for innocent kids in the police force, so if this serves as a filter to keep them out, I say “good.”
And by the way, this should go for anyone that is armed when a school shooting is taking place.
This post was edited on 5/26/22 at 1:43 pm
Posted on 5/26/22 at 1:41 pm to Bronc
quote:
and ignore the ongoing gunfire may be indicative of executions and treat this as no longer time sensitive.
Speculation.
All you've done is create an outcome and now are attempting to make the pieces fit.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 1:41 pm to Bronc
quote:
But assuming you are right, it still leaves a huge question regarding why it would take 90 minutes to re-engage when there is no plausible or credible way for officers to 100% survey that room and verify mortality or who is or isnt inside still.
If the officers were reasonably certain that everyone in that classroom is dead (I don't know if this is true, I'm just speculating) then there's no reason to engage until you have every conceivable advantage. They were likely attempting to negotiate with the shooter at this point as well.
But, if they had any reason to believe there may be additional children in the classroom that were alive then I 100% agree with you, they should have made every attempt to get into that classroom and engage the shooter.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 1:54 pm to UpToPar
quote:
If the officers were reasonably certain that everyone in that classroom is dead (I don't know if this is true, I'm just speculating)
It is literally impossible to confidentially make this assumption based on any timeline of events we have at the moment.
Not only to assume everyone is dead, but that no one is bleeding out and time is of the essence, or someone was well hidden. Literally impossible.
The only reasonable assumption is that kids may still be inside and the killer is still alive and dangerous and we can hear and/or see him firing occassionally.
quote:
If the officers were reasonably certain that everyone in that classroom is dead (I don't know if this is true, I'm just speculating) then there's no reason to engage until you have every conceivable advantage. They were likely attempting to negotiate with the shooter at this point as well.
But, if they had any reason to believe there may be additional children in the classroom that were alive then I 100% agree with you, they should have made every attempt to get into that classroom and engage the shooter.
They have stated in these press conferences they were under the assumption(and assumptions were confirmed) that students still needed to be evacuated and rescued. That as the killer remained barricaded they were attempting rescues.
There is one account of a mother dragged to the ground and handcuffed because cops refused to go in or let her go in, another officer released her a bit later and she hoped the fence and found her kids in the school.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 2:04 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
I don't believe jack shite the media says. If it turns out to be true, then those cops (or any parents who might have had a gun in the car) are a damn disgrace.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 2:07 pm to Bronc
quote:
It is literally impossible to confidentially make this assumption based on any timeline of events we have at the moment.
Not only to assume everyone is dead, but that no one is bleeding out and time is of the essence, or someone was well hidden. Literally impossible.
The same could be said for every single hostage situation. You work with the information you have and try to make the best decisions you can based on that information. There are ways to gather intel on the situation inside the classroom.
quote:
The only reasonable assumption is that kids may still be inside and the killer is still alive and dangerous and we can hear and/or see him firing occassionally.
Where was it reported that he continued to fire from within the classroom after the initial officers arrived?
quote:
They have stated in these press conferences they were under the assumption(and assumptions were confirmed) that students still needed to be evacuated and rescued. That as the killer remained barricaded they were attempting rescues.
There is one account of a mother dragged to the ground and handcuffed because cops refused to go in or let her go in, another officer released her a bit later and she hoped the fence and found her kids in the school.
You grossly misunderstand what I'm saying. Children in other classrooms/other parts of the school are not going to heavily factor into a decision to enter the room and engage or wait for more trained/qualified LEO to arrive and formulate a plan.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 2:17 pm to UpToPar
quote:
If the officers were reasonably certain that everyone in that classroom is dead (I don't know if this is true, I'm just speculating)
I don't know if "reasonably certain" is a good standard for this situation, is it? Shouldn't they be "absolutely certain" that an active shooter is contained by himself rather than with other people? Imagine if there were still a few kids alive in there, that were executed minutes before they breached the door 90 minutes (or however long) later. "Well, we were pretty sure he had killed everyone already. Our bad."
I guess we will get more details on it.
This post was edited on 5/26/22 at 2:19 pm
Posted on 5/26/22 at 2:20 pm to UpToPar
quote:
The same could be said for every single hostage situation.
An Active Shooter situation is vastly different than a hostage situation. It's common knowledge that since Columbine that you don't treat an active shooter situation like a hostage situation (like they did in columbine).
quote:
There are ways to gather intel on the situation inside the classroom.
Time is of the essence in an active shooter situation. It's inexcusable to spend a lot of time "gathering intel" when people are actively being murdered.
This post was edited on 5/26/22 at 2:22 pm
Posted on 5/26/22 at 2:21 pm to Bronc
quote:
why it would take 90 minutes
You keep saying 90 minutes, the latest I saw was 40-60 minutes from the first shot inside the school to the shooter dead?
That's still A LOT of time. But it also is a small town in the middle of southwest Texas and they were likely waiting on county and federal agents to arrive.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 2:22 pm to UpToPar
quote:
The same could be said for every single hostage situation. You work with the information you have and try to make the best decisions you can based on that information. There are ways to gather intel on the situation inside the classroom.
This was an active shooter situation, not a hostage situation.
At no point has anyone claimed they saw this as a hostage situation. You seem to just be throwing stuff against the wall to see what might stick to pre-emptively excuse the cops behavior: they probably knew they were all dead, they assumed it was a hostage situation.
None of this has any supporting evidence. None of this is what DPS and other spokesman have said the operating assumption was(and it would unconscionable if it was given what was clearly a deranged killer killing anyone he could).
quote:
Where was it reported that he continued to fire from within the classroom after the initial officers arrived?
In both press conferences, including the one just now.
"most" but not all of the gunfire was asserted to be in the early parts of the cops initial engagement.
Numerous eyewitnesses, including in the story I quoted, spoke of being drawn to the scene because of ongoing gunfire, a
quote:
You grossly misunderstand what I'm saying. Children in other classrooms/other parts of the school are not going to heavily factor into a decision to enter the room and engage or wait for more trained/qualified LEO to arrive and formulate a plan.
And again, SOP is to aggressively engage the shooter because the baseline assumption is that in an active shooter situation more time wasted = more fatalities.
Which is why there is a looming question and multiple investigations being opened as we speak about why it took them 60-90 minutes to breach the classroom. "we needed better armor and manpower" is not a viable excuse.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 2:22 pm to SUB
quote:
An Active Shooter situation is vastly different than a hostage situation.
Agreed.
quote:
It's common knowledge that since Columbine that you don't treat an active shooter situation like a hostage situation (like they did in columbine).
Agreed, but active shooter situations sometimes turn into hostage situations.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 2:28 pm to UpToPar
quote:
Agreed, but active shooter situations sometimes turn into hostage situations.
Why are you insisting on carrying water for these officers?
I get wanting to wait and see, that's fine, I get leaning on the side of trust vs my skepticism, I get that. But you are just conjuring up excuses the cops aren't even using to pre-emptively try and explain away the 60+ minute gap in engagement.
They have not called this a hostage situation, or claimed that is why they didn't engage. They have not said they verified all of them were dead(the opposite of your hostage theory), therefore took their time.
This post was edited on 5/26/22 at 2:31 pm
Posted on 5/26/22 at 2:32 pm to Bronc
quote:
Why are you insisting on carrying water for these officers?
Then
quote:
I get wanting to wait and see, that's fine
You're just dumb. He's done nothing you haven't done, zippy
This post was edited on 5/26/22 at 2:33 pm
Posted on 5/26/22 at 2:34 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
Parents would not have been there until well after the shooting was over.
It sounds like the shooting occurred immediately after his entering the classroom.
It sounds like the shooting occurred immediately after his entering the classroom.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 2:34 pm to Bronc
If these reports are accurate and answers aren’t given or made clear they should allow the parents of victims to just savagely beat these cops in the streets.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 2:35 pm to Bronc
quote:
But you are just conjuring up excuses the cops aren't even using to pre-emptively try and explain away the 60+ minute gap in engagement.
I'm not conjuring up excuses. I'm speculating (as I've admitted) about scenarios that might explain their actions. You have apparently taken the other approach. That is, you've already made up your mind that they were in the wrong and have attempted to fit what little facts we do have to that narrative.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 2:36 pm to UpToPar
quote:
Agreed, but active shooter situations sometimes turn into hostage situations.
I can’t imagine a scenario where this is what happened here.
Like others have said. He has already killed people in the classroom that he is in. It is impossible for the cops to assess if there are still kids in there alive, hiding, or shot but not dead.
This post was edited on 5/26/22 at 2:38 pm
Posted on 5/26/22 at 2:36 pm to tylercsbn9
quote:
Also apparently they couldn’t even get into the school
bullshite. They could've gotten into the school. I don't give a shite if the doors were locked. They could've found a fricking way.
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