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Message
re: American Bar Association drops LSAT requirement for Law School admissions
Posted on 11/20/22 at 1:59 pm to Joshjrn
Posted on 11/20/22 at 1:59 pm to Joshjrn
quote:The schools did, though.
The ABA did not mandate a minimum score.
But hey, now you don't even have to get off your arse and take the test, and no one will ever know how unsuited for the legal profession you are.
But of course you're right. They just changed this policy for no reason whatsoever.
1
Posted on 11/20/22 at 2:12 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
Can't remember specifically, but I seem to recall someone saying it's basically not even proctored and pretty much an open book test.
You’ve got to be shitting me?
Posted on 11/20/22 at 2:16 pm to upgrayedd
quote:2020 had no bar exam because of Covid
Can't remember specifically, but I seem to recall someone saying it's basically not even proctored and pretty much an open book test.
2021 had an open book one day exam because of Covid - but with the time constraints "open book" didn't really apply. Hard to answer that many questions in 50 minutes while looking at notes.
2022 was back to 3 day in person closed book at the alerio center. It is back to being 100% proctored and closed book. full 3 day exam.
This post was edited on 11/20/22 at 2:17 pm
Posted on 11/20/22 at 2:16 pm to blueboy
quote:
The schools did, though.
And they still can. This doesn't change that. That's the part that you seem to keep glossing over because it's inconvenient to your position.
quote:
But hey, now you don't even have to get off your arse and take the test, and no one will ever know how unsuited for the legal profession you are.
If a school chooses not to require it, and that's the only school you want to apply to, then sure. If you want to attend any school that still requires it, then no. And considering that, even according to you, damned near every law school was previously using LSAT scores as a component to admissions, I see no reason why most law schools would move away from requiring it. It's simply not in their best interest to do so.
quote:
But of course you're right. They just changed this policy for no reason whatsoever.
I'm sure they have a host of reasons, both stated and unstated. Those reasons just have nothing to do with the ABA "lowering standards", because again, the ABA didn't have a "standard" in the area to begin with.
Posted on 11/20/22 at 2:17 pm to PP7 for heisman
quote:
2020 had no bar exam because of Covid
2021 had an open book one day exam because of Covid
2022 was back to 3 day in person closed book at the alerio center. It is back to being 100% proctored and closed book. full 3 day exam.
That's less surprising. All kinds of shite was weird during COVID. But I was going to be utterly floored if they had permanently moved away from the "old" way.
Posted on 11/20/22 at 2:26 pm to Joshjrn
quote:The part you seem to be glossing over is that the people who enacted this new policy said that before, with the test, there wasn't enough diversity. Now, with the test out of the way, there will be more diversity.
That's the part that you seem to keep glossing over because it's inconvenient to your position.
Weird, huh? Why would that be? If nothing changes and this is a nothingburger, why would they think that?
So, to recap, the people who changed this policy disagree with you. I just don't see how you think you have a leg to stand on here.
quote:Right. My mistake. They're removing standards, not lowering them.
"lowering standards"
Posted on 11/20/22 at 2:34 pm to blueboy
ABA: “We’re removing the test to increase diversity.”
Lefties here: “Removing the test changes nothing! Why do you keep saying it will?!”
Lefties here: “Removing the test changes nothing! Why do you keep saying it will?!”
Posted on 11/20/22 at 2:42 pm to blueboy
quote:
The part you seem to be glossing over is that the people who enacted this new policy said that before, with the test, there wasn't enough diversity. Now, with the test out of the way, there will be more diversity.
Weird, huh? Why would that be? If nothing changes and this is a nothingburger, why would they think that?
So, to recap, the people who changed this policy disagree with you. I just don't see how you think you have a leg to stand on here.
I know that's what the Daily Caller is arguing, but I see no indication of the "people who changed the policy" disagreeing with me. Everything I've read on it is that the idea is to give law schools the freedom to streamline their admissions criteria to that which they actually want to evaluate. Want to consider LSAT scores? Go for it. Don't care what your applicants' scores are? Well, then they can save a few hundred bucks and not take the test.
In fact, there are many out there arguing that this is actually a step backwards in regards to diversity pushes, as it will allow schools to use more subjective measures that exclude minorities.
I find it interesting that SULC, this board's favorite legal punching bag, is quoted in the article as saying they will continue to require, and consider, LSAT scores.
quote:
Right. My mistake. They're removing standards, not lowering them.
Still wrong, but you seem committed to it, so more power to you. Unless you're trying to argue with a straight face that the "standard" that you're so interested in protecting is "paid a few hundred bucks to sign up for a test"
Posted on 11/20/22 at 2:48 pm to Joshjrn
quote:No, it's what the ABA and advocacy groups are arguing. The Daily Caller isn't arguing anything.
I know that's what the Daily Caller is arguing,
quote:Squint harder.
but I see no indication
Posted on 11/20/22 at 2:49 pm to biglego
quote:
Lefties here: “Removing the test changes nothing! Why do you keep saying it will?!”
I assume you're not talking to me, as I imagine I'm to the right of you on the majority of issues, but I'll help out my friends on the left
No one is saying that nothing is changing, because something is clearly changing: schools that don't care about LSAT scores no longer have to burden their applicants with forcing them to pay a few hundred bucks and burn a Saturday to take the test. If a law school is looking to increase diversity in admissions, whether socioeconomic or racial, then getting rid of requiring the LSAT makes sense within that paradigm.
But if that law school wants to remain accredited, it will need to be rigorous enough that its graduates pass the Bar at rates that won't made the ABA pissy. That's why I think this one change is a nothingburger. Now, if the ABA comes out later and says that it's no longer going to look at Bar passage rates to police accreditation, etc, etc, then those would be big changes. This just ain't one of them.
Posted on 11/20/22 at 2:58 pm to Joshjrn
quote:
LSAT scores no longer have to burden their applicants with forcing them to pay a few hundred bucks and burn a Saturday to take the test. If a law school is looking to increase diversity in admissions, whether socioeconomic or racial, then getting rid of requiring the LSAT makes sense within that paradigm.
quote:Again, the people who did this disagree with you.
“In the grand scheme of things, folks of color perform less well on the LSAT than not, and for that reason, I think we are headed in the right direction,” Leo Martinez, an ABA council member and dean emeritus at University of California, Hastings College of the Law, said at the meeting.
Posted on 11/20/22 at 3:05 pm to blueboy
quote:
Again, the people who did this disagree with you.
Person. That's one guy
If you want to ignore the entire original WSJ article, and any shred of logic, to hang your hat on a one sentence quote by one guy on the committee, I guess it makes more sense to me now why you're either unwilling or unable to have an original thought on the subject.
I also find it interesting that you keep sidestepping things like SULC keeping the requirement, the admissions dean of Cal Berkley saying this is going in the wrong direction regarding diversity, etc. This one guy's one sentence quotation is the end all, be all, apparently.
Posted on 11/20/22 at 3:18 pm to Joshjrn
quote:
Person. That's one guy
Yeah, a member of the board interviewed right after they did this. I'm sure he was the only one. 'No one is saying that'
'Okay, but no one with the ABA is saying that'
'Okay, but it's just one board member.'
Posted on 11/20/22 at 3:22 pm to blueboy
quote:
Yeah, a member of the board interviewed right after they did this. I'm sure he was the only one.
'No one is saying that'
'Okay, but no one with the ABA is saying that'
'Okay, but it's just one board member.'
fricking hell with the strawmanning...
I said that I couldn't see anywhere the ABA, as an entity, was saying that. I never said "no one", or "no one with the ABA". It was a one sentence quote from one guy. I would be curious to hear what else that one guy would have to say, or the other 15, or the ABA as an entity.
Want to address the other portions of my posts that you keep diligently ignoring yet?
Posted on 11/20/22 at 3:25 pm to Joshjrn
quote:
'No one is saying that'
'Okay, but no one with the ABA is saying that'
'Okay, but it's just one board member.'
'I said that I couldn't see anywhere the ABA, as an entity, was saying that.'
Posted on 11/20/22 at 3:28 pm to blueboy
Thank you for making it perfectly clear that you have no original thoughts on the subject, and are just looking to parrot that which fits your preconceived notion about a subject you know nothing about
Posted on 11/20/22 at 3:29 pm to Joshjrn
You’re just 1 guy as well who also happens to have the minority opinion around here.
This post was edited on 11/20/22 at 3:30 pm
Posted on 11/20/22 at 3:35 pm to Realityintheface
quote:
Your just 1 guy as well who also happens to have the minority opinion around here.
Very true. But I'm not asking anyone to simply take my word on the subject. I'm asking them to give the subject actual thought. Now, that's also going to require people to educate themselves a bit on the law school admissions process. For example, I imagine that the majority of posters would have assumed coming in that there was minimum LSAT score mandated by the ABA, when that simply wasn't the case. As long as people are willing to actively and honestly engage the subject, I'll discuss it indefinitely. But the people who just want to lob insults, etc? They aren't worth engaging.
Posted on 11/20/22 at 3:35 pm to Joshjrn
quote:
just looking to parrot that which fits your preconceived notion
I'm quoting the ABA members. Here's another one.quote:
“The goal is to open up innovation—finding other ways that might complement the current admissions processes to move us ahead in legal education on diversity and a host of other considerations,” Thies said.
quote:
a subject you know nothing about
You can't even grasp this one issue.Posted on 11/20/22 at 3:36 pm to Cs
So there will be even more lawyers fighting for doing family wills, divorces, etc?
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