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When in Rome
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re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
Good article about how Boeing should handle PR to gain back public trust
quote:

Now that the decision of whether to ground the airplane has been taken out of Boeing’s hands, it is time for management to put a full-scale effort into restoring trust in the company’s products and approach to safety issues.

The top priority should be full public disclosure of all known problems with MCAS and AOA sensors to regulators, operators, pilots … and yes, even the traveling public. Ninety-nine percent of travelers will not understand (or even care) how MCAS works, but just seeing Boeing offer full disclosure of what it knows and how it intends to implement potential fixes will go a long way. The goal must be to restore the public’s confidence that Boeing is solely focused on identifying and addressing any technical issues – not avoiding bad publicity or maintaining its stock price.

Whether Boeing management likes it or not, perception is reality. Any public perception of a less-than-honest approach to safety will have implications on operators’ fleet selections for years to come. Even in a world where Boeing is one of only two choices for most commercial aircraft purchases, the buyers of those aircraft (airlines) know they must offer a product to their end customers (passengers) that the latter instinctively know to be safe and reliable.

The public’s confidence in Boeing has already been severely shaken, and damage to the company’s brand will only grow every day it continues to deny the existence of a problem it cannot disprove.


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TigerstuckinMS
LSU Fan
Member since Nov 2005
18117 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

And what exactly is the software patch doing? Have you found anything on its specifics?

Hopefully keeping the pointy end pointed at the sky.


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Napoleon
New Orleans Saints Fan
Kenna
Member since Dec 2007
57913 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
Mcas was supposed to take pilot error out the equation instead it is the error.


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upgrayedd
Lamar Fan
Lifting at Tobin's house
Member since Mar 2013
86284 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
Just checked their stock price. They had a huge bump in Q1.


When in Rome
USA Fan
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
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re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
CNN
quote:

The cost of grounding all 737 Max planes could be between $1 billion and $5 billion, according to estimates from Wall Street firms Melius Research and Jefferies. Both those estimates were based on a three-month grounding. Boeing can afford that cost: It posted record revenue of $101 billion last year, and a $10.6 billion profit. It had forecast even stronger results this year.

Boeing has grounded an entire fleet of planes before. In 2013, Boeing told airlines not to fly their 787 Dreamliners because the planes' batteries were catching fire. Boeing didn't stop building the 787 planes while it worked to find a solution to the problem. At that time, only 50 Dreamliners were in service, so the cost to Boeing was "minimal," the company said.


When in Rome
USA Fan
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
30971 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
CNBC - Next-generation satellites gave federal officials key data in Boeing 737 Max investigation

quote:

Only a few months after SpaceX launched the last set of Iridium Communications satellites into orbit, the new network is helping deliver critical data to aviation officials.

The Federal Aviation Administration, or FAA, grounded Boeing’s 737 Max airplanes on Wednesday, after receiving data from air traffic surveillance company Aireon about the deadly crash of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302.

Aireon’s system piggybacks on Iridium’s network of 75 satellites. Expected to become fully operational in a few weeks, Aireon can track airplanes anywhere on the planet. But the company’s data is already proving to be critical, as Aireon said in a statement to CNBC that “the system was able to capture information associated with Flight 302.”

While Aireon declined to make company officials available for an interview while the investigation is ongoing, the company said it is working with federal officials to provide them with raw data. Even though the Aireon system has not been fully rolled out, the company is able to provide investigators with information about an aircraft’s location, velocity, altitude and more.
quote:

Known as an Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast system, or ADS-B, Aireon’s technology in space constantly and passively receives information from any aircraft equipped with an ADS-B transponder – essentially an antenna on a plane that is sending flight data to space.

What many airline passengers may not know is that airplanes are not constantly tracked by radar. While flying over land, airplanes keep in touch with air traffic controllers to relay information about the flight. But once a jet heads more than 100 to 150 miles offshore, it enters procedural airspace. At that point, air traffic controllers must rely on a pilot to relay an aircraft’s position every 10 minutes.

Iridium CEO Matt Desch explained to CNBC a year ago that Aireon’s system means that “airlines can fly more direct routes, which could reduce both the cost and time of air travel,” he said.

“Aireon makes the whole planet visible to air traffic controllers,” Desch said.
Bonus image:


A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket carries 10 Iridium NEXT satellites into orbit.
This post was edited on 3/14 at 3:59 pm


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baldona
Auburn Fan
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Member since Feb 2016
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re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

So I guess they were just rolling the dice hoping another one didn’t crash while they worked on the software update. Shame on them.


I would bet all of this comes down to shitty pilots.

My guess, Boeing points this out off the record or has someone else do it for them. Sure, the software will get Boeing into some trouble. But the software is there to make great pilots better, not to make crappy pilots competent. At some point, crappy pilots just can’t continue to fly top of the line planes.

The fact is it will hurt Boeing’s profits too if they come out and say their planes are actually fine it’s just that crappy pilots have issues, because then fewer airlines can buy them.

But that’s what this is most likely to be. A software issue that a competent (hint: doesn’t have to be top gun quality) pilot would be able to overcome.

A crew with one guy having between 200-400 total hours, is not it.
This post was edited on 3/14 at 4:27 pm


flyAU
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re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

Dawgholio


That ratio tho


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When in Rome
USA Fan
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
30971 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
There has been a lot of back and forth over whether or not Boeing is partially to blame for not providing proper training materials to prepare pilots for this kind of situation. I thought this article was interesting.

Don't ground the plane, ground the pilot
quote:

His name is Wally Magathan, and he has worked as an airline pilot, an Air Force pilot and C-5 Galaxy flight instructor, and an instructor in airline L-1011 flight-simulators. I know him through COPA, the organization of pilots and owners of Cirrus’s small single-engine airplanes.
quote:

-Boeing’s design deficiency [JF note: having to add the MCAS, to offset the pitch-up problem] sets up the need for pilot training on how to overcome it.

-Boeing’s failure to highlight the change resulted in no specific MCAS pilot training.

Those two big mistakes, it now appears, likely caused two tragic major catastrophes. Shame on Boeing if the final analysis bears these points out.

The corrective action is simple and within the capabilities of any competent airline captain to execute. Certainly easier than dealing with an engine fire or loss of multiple hydraulic systems.

There is a broad spectrum of abilities in any group of pilots, and without an emphasis training, some of them will be unable to overcome the design deficiency, even if the emergency procedure is simple to carry out. All the lights and buzzers going off will freeze the less capable pilot who has not been trained to drill down to what is going on, and to flip the switch. Training has to be to the lowest level of ability, if you’re operating an airline with any significant number of pilots. They all can't be Sully Sullenbergers.
quote:

To me, from the standpoint of an airline pilot, there was no need to ground the fleet. Just ground each and every 737MAX pilot until he or she has been trained on the MCAS.

After two accidents, require a week in the simulator—for overkill to make sure it penetrates even the dimmest bulbs. But nobody flies again until they have it. In effect that grounds the fleet, but only so long as the training takes.
At the same time, regulatory bodies can require Boeing to eliminate the design deficiency so that the training on the MCAS need not be so intense, a process that could take months if not years.

But if I were speaking as a non-flying member of the public, and as a politician who must answer to them, I would say: ground the fleet now. As far as the public is concerned, the industry had its chance and blew it. I would have no confidence in the plane nor the industry until an explanation is found and the design changed. Nor would I buy a ticket on such a plane.

Once the public pressure became too great, the grounding of the fleet was inevitable—but not because the plane is unsafe when flown by a properly trained crew. Boeing will pay a price for this, if the final analysis holds these accidents would not have occurred in a 737 model that had no MCAS.
This post was edited on 3/14 at 4:33 pm


GeauxxxTigers23
USA Fan
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Member since Apr 2013
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re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
I’m pretty sure that’s what Boeing has been hinting at all along. “Look guys, yes there is there is a risk of this happening but it’s extremely remote and is covered under the emergency procedures we’ve provided. Any competent pilot should be able to handle it.”

Unfortunately that is a terrible PR move and now they’re fricked


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When in Rome
USA Fan
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
30971 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
Yeah, it's pretty crazy. It doesn't help that this report came out today too; Boeing is not having a good PR week: CNN-US Air Force says Boeing has 'severe situation' after trash found on refueling planes
quote:

In a blistering attack on Boeing, the Air Force's top acquisition official said the company has a "severe situation" with flawed inspections of its new KC-46 air refueling tanker aircraft, after trash and industrial tools were found in some planes after they were delivered to the Air Force.

Dr. Will Roper, assistant secretary of the Air Force for acquisition, technology and logistics, made clear his concerns after visiting Boeing's Everett Washington plant where the plane is assembled.
quote:

Roper visited the plant on Monday and, after getting a company promise for a new inspection plan, deliveries are resuming as upgraded inspections are completed. Six aircraft that had already been received were re-inspected by the Air Force.

"We are doing more stringent inspections so we feel confident before we accept any plane from Boeing," Air Force spokeswoman Ann Stefanek told CNN.

While the discovery of trash and tools in the planes is not a result of design flaw, or a specific safety concern, Air Force officials privately told CNN they were aware that the timing of the problem is exceptionally sensitive for Boeing after the grounding of its 737 Max jet.
quote:

"FOD is really about every person, everyone in the workforce, following those procedures and bringing a culture of discipline for safety," Roper said.

"Culture is something that I'm not going to believe because we have a good month, or a good two months, that the culture is back. I'm going to believe it when I see month after month for a long time that yes, those practices are now things that aren't just being done because they have to be done, they are being done because the workforce says, 'This is a product we deliver to the Air Force,'" he added.

Boeing will now have to conduct spot inspections on the aircraft during production, including specific areas of the planes that may be sealed as part of the production processes.

This post was edited on 3/14 at 4:56 pm


Lima Whiskey
Virginia Fan
Member since Apr 2013
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re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
That gives me zero confidence in the mechanical work they’re doing.


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Cold Drink
LSU Fan
Member since Mar 2016
1524 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
Again - these “shitty pilots” somehow manage to keep every other plane from flying face first into the ground.

The problem is the plane. Period.


GeauxxxTigers23
USA Fan
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
54866 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

Again - these “shitty pilots” somehow manage to keep every other plane from flying face first into the ground.

The problem is the plane. Period.
Its possible to be both.


LarryCLE
Florida Fan
Member since Apr 2017
646 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

The problem is the plane. Period.

You need to get ahold of the Ethiopian authorities and let them know so that they don’t waste any more time on the investigation.


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keks tadpole
Auburn Fan
D'Olive Creek
Member since Feb 2017
1591 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

after trash and industrial tools were found in some planes after they were delivered to the Air Force.


I'd be pretty hacked-off if the dealership delivered my new Porsche and there was a empty Mountain Dew can in the cup holder and a greasy socket wrench in the truck.


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castorinho
Oklahoma Fan
13623 posts
Member since Nov 2010
56417 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

Just checked their stock price. They had a huge bump in Q1.
this is why I haven't bought. It just had an insane run the past few months. Even with the drop this week it's still 25% above its price of 295 on Dec 24th.


777Tiger
LSU Fan
Member since Mar 2011
35125 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
If it ain’t Boeing, I ain’t going!


castorinho
Oklahoma Fan
13623 posts
Member since Nov 2010
56417 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

The captain of a doomed Ethiopian Airlines jetliner faced an emergency almost immediately after takeoff from Addis Ababa, requesting permission in a panicky voice to return after three minutes as the aircraft accelerated to abnormal speed, a person who reviewed air traffic communications said Thursday.
“Break break, request back to home,” the captain told air traffic controllers as they scrambled to divert two other flights approaching the airport. “Request vector for landing.”
Controllers also observed that the aircraft, a new Boeing 737 Max 8, was oscillating up and down by hundreds of feet — a sign that something was extraordinarily wrong.



LINK
This post was edited on 3/14 at 10:42 pm


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Cold Drink
LSU Fan
Member since Mar 2016
1524 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

Its possible to be both.
Lots of things are possible.

How many Airbusses have these shitty pilots crashed in the last decade? For that matter how many Boeings other than the MAX8 have they crashed in the last decade?


I guess this particular model of plane just coincidentally attracts the worst pilots. All I know is I’m not getting on one any time soon.


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