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flyingtexastiger
LSU Fan
Southlake, TX
Member since Oct 2005
745 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
Neither of those reports sound like an MCAS issue???


When in Rome
USA Fan
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
30971 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
I’m sorry, I did not understand that. I was going by the headline and subtitle which said “Southwest is adding new angle of attack indicators to its 737 Max fleet” and "The AOA indicator will provide a valuable supplemental cross-check in the event there is an erroneous AOA signal present."

I will update to remove the text in point 2. My main goal was to assuage the poster’s fears about his upcoming flight on a Southwest 737.
This post was edited on 3/13 at 10:29 pm


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GeauxxxTigers23
USA Fan
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
54866 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

Neither of those reports sound like an MCAS issue???
No but they are both nose down reactions by the airplane. Whether it be from the MCAS or the Autopilot. It may be a software issue. The computer may have a glitch that interprets AOA incorrectly in certain flight profiles and noses the plane over. That’s my uneducated guess.


Cold Drink
LSU Fan
Member since Mar 2016
1524 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
At this point an MCAS issue is best case scenario. If another independent factor caused a second Max8 to fall out of the sky then I’m not getting on one any time soon and neither should anyone else.

Fact is these should have been grounded after Lion Air and heads should roll.


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When in Rome
USA Fan
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
30971 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
NTSB Press Release
quote:

The U.S. National Transportation Safety Board is dispatching three investigators to France Thursday to assist with the downloading and analysis of flight recorders from the Boeing 737 MAX 8 that crashed Sunday near Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.

The NTSB investigators have expertise in recorders, flight crew operations and human factors. The French Bureau d'Enquêtes et d'Analyses (BEA) will be downloading the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder in support of the Ethiopian investigation.

The investigation is being led by the Ethiopian Aircraft Accident Investigations Bureau in accordance with the standards defined in International Civil Aviation Organization Annex 13. The NTSB appointed an accredited representative to the investigation under the ICAO standards because the airplane was manufactured in the United States. All investigative data regarding the investigation will be released by Ethiopian authorities.

For more information on NTSB participation in foreign investigations go to: https://go.usa.gov/xEswV.

The NTSB investigators dispatched to France will work in coordination with investigators on the ground in Addis Ababa. Those investigators were sent immediately after the accident and have been integral to the efforts underway in Ethiopia. They are being assisted by technical advisers from the Federal Aviation Administration, Boeing and GE/Safran, the manufacturer of the engines.

The NTSB is an independent U.S. federal agency charged with investigating transportation accidents and issuing recommendations to improve safety.
This post was edited on 3/14 at 11:02 am


upgrayedd
Lamar Fan
Lifting at Tobin's house
Member since Mar 2013
86284 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
Why did they choose to send it to France? Boeing can't be happy about that.


When in Rome
USA Fan
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
30971 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
ABC News - Why is France analyzing Ethiopian jet's black boxes?
quote:

Ethiopian authorities wanted European investigators to handle the analysis because of its complexity, according to BEA spokesman Sebastien Barthe. They initially asked Germany, which said it didn't have the necessary capacity to take it on, so then the Ethiopians turned to France, Barthe told The Associated Press.
quote:

Among major crash investigations the BEA has led were the 2015 plunge of a Germanwings jet — whose black boxes revealed that the co-pilot had deliberately slammed the plane into an Alpine mountainside after locking the captain out of the cockpit.

The BEA also studied the flight recorders retrieved from the depths of the Atlantic Ocean two years after the 2009 crash of Rio-Paris Air France Flight 447. The investigation determined its speed sensors had iced over, causing confusion in the cockpit.


upgrayedd
Lamar Fan
Lifting at Tobin's house
Member since Mar 2013
86284 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

The BEA also studied the flight recorders retrieved from the depths of the Atlantic Ocean two years after the 2009 crash of Rio-Paris Air France Flight 447.

I thought Airbus had real time instrument recording transmitted to a central database. Why is the black box needed?


GeauxxxTigers23
USA Fan
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
54866 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

I thought Airbus had real time instrument recording transmitted to a central database.
How long have they had that in place? And does the network have worldwide coverage to relay data back to France?


GeorgeTheGreek
Michigan State Fan
Sparta, Greece
Member since Mar 2008
53323 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

The BEA also studied the flight recorders retrieved from the depths of the Atlantic Ocean two years after the 2009 crash of Rio-Paris Air France Flight 447. The investigation determined its speed sensors had iced over, causing confusion in the cockpit.


That cockpit recording is quite the read.


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RogerTheShrubber
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Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
166014 posts
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re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

I thought Airbus had real time instrument recording transmitted to a central database


It only transmits certain information which is maintenance related, I believe.


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hottub
Member since Dec 2012
576 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

thought Airbus had real time instrument recording transmitted to a central database. Why is the black box needed?


Most aircraft now have the ability to transmit certain data back. However, these are generally “pings” in a set time schedule. The amount of data to transmit to have a constant recording of all the instruments, engines, flight controls, etc. would be a lot. Plus, the quite a few black out areas that data can’t be transmitted.


upgrayedd
Lamar Fan
Lifting at Tobin's house
Member since Mar 2013
86284 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

How long have they had that in place? And does the network have worldwide coverage to relay data back to France?

IIRC, it was in place during that incident. As I understand it, all their planes transmit data worldwide. But, it may be an option that you have to sign up for. Not 100% sure. I thought I remember reading that in PopMech that it was in place during the Air France crash.
This post was edited on 3/14 at 11:44 am


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When in Rome
USA Fan
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
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re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
I know! It's so frustrating.


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upgrayedd
Lamar Fan
Lifting at Tobin's house
Member since Mar 2013
86284 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
Gotcha. That makes sense


When in Rome
USA Fan
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
30971 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
BBC reporting that Boeing 737 Max aircraft will remain grounded 'until May at least'
quote:

All Boeing 737 Max 8 and 9 aircraft will remain grounded at least until May after the fatal Ethiopian Airlines crash on Sunday, the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has said.

The aircraft will not fly until a software update can be tested and installed, the US regulator said.
quote:

US Representative Rick Larsen said the software upgrade would take a few weeks to complete, and installing it on all the aircraft would take "at least through April".

Reuters
quote:

U.S. lawmakers said after a briefing with the acting head of the Federal Aviation Administration on Thursday that Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 planes will remain grounded for “weeks” at a minimum, until a software upgrade could be tested and installed in all of the planes.
quote:

The FAA said Monday it planned to require the upgrade it termed “design changes” by April. An FAA spokesman confirmed Thursday that the FAA will not unground the airplanes until the software patch is approved and installed.

The software patch may not be enough to allow the planes to be ungrounded depending on the findings from the ongoing investigation into the crash of Ethiopian Airlines 302 that killed 157 people on Sunday.

Boeing declined to comment, but said Monday it would roll out the software improvement “across the 737 MAX fleet in the coming weeks.”

Representative Rick Larsen said after the briefing the software upgrade would take a few weeks to complete and installing on all aircraft would take “at least through April.” He said additional training would also have to take place.


GeauxxxTigers23
USA Fan
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
54866 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
So I guess they were just rolling the dice hoping another one didn’t crash while they worked on the software update. Shame on them.

And what exactly is the software patch doing? Have you found anything on its specifics?


upgrayedd
Lamar Fan
Lifting at Tobin's house
Member since Mar 2013
86284 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
I'm gathering up some cash to buy Boeing shares when they shite the bed


When in Rome
USA Fan
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
30971 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
Boeing released this March 11
quote:

For the past several months and in the aftermath of Lion Air Flight 610, Boeing has been developing a flight control software enhancement for the 737 MAX, designed to make an already safe aircraft even safer. This includes updates to the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) flight control law, pilot displays, operation manuals and crew training. The enhanced flight control law incorporates angle of attack (AOA) inputs, limits stabilizer trim commands in response to an erroneous angle of attack reading, and provides a limit to the stabilizer command in order to retain elevator authority.


quote:

So I guess they were just rolling the dice hoping another one didn’t crash while they worked on the software update. Shame on them.
Sure does seem that way. Although they still maintain that:
quote:

Boeing’s 737 MAX Flight Crew Operations Manual (FCOM) already outlines an existing procedure to safely handle the unlikely event of erroneous data coming from an angle of attack (AOA) sensor. The pilot will always be able to override the flight control law using electric trim or manual trim. In addition, it can be controlled through the use of the existing runaway stabilizer procedure as reinforced in the Operations Manual Bulletin (OMB) issued on Nov. 6, 2018.
But as you've said earlier, this seems like a bigger problem than just faulty AoA readings and the MCAS system anyway. It'll be interesting to see what information they provide going forward. I think it would behoove them to give the public full transparency at this point.
This post was edited on 3/14 at 3:02 pm


GeauxxxTigers23
USA Fan
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
54866 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

I'm gathering up some cash to buy Boeing shares when they shite the bed
Same


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