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GeauxxxTigers23
USA Fan
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
54866 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

I guess this particular model of plane just coincidentally attracts the worst pilots.
Foriegn airlines attract the world’s worst pilots.

quote:

All I know is I’m not getting on one any time soon.
Literally no one is.
This post was edited on 3/14 at 11:15 pm


Cold Drink
LSU Fan
Member since Mar 2016
1524 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

Foriegn airlines attract the world’s worst pilots


Cool. So why aren’t these pilots crashing other planes?



This plane should never have been built. That it was approved and not even grounded after Lion Air is a crime and I hope and maybe even expect people will go to jail for this. What a complete, monumental, PREVETABLE frickup by Boeing and our regulatory agencies.

And LOL at everyone wanting to buy Boeing stock right now. It has to go much, much lower to approach what that company is currently worth. Not touching them unless and until there’s a serious change in leadership.


GeauxxxTigers23
USA Fan
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
54866 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

This plane should never have been built. That it was approved and not even grounded after Lion Air is a crime and I hope and maybe even expect people will go to jail for this.
Probably. But better pilots would have probably been able to overcome the MCAS failure.


Cold Drink
LSU Fan
Member since Mar 2016
1524 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
Of course, but how confident are you going to be next time you ride a plane that requires skilled pilots to keep it from crashing in the dirt?


Every other plane stays in the air. This plane doesn’t. If Boeing’s excuse is “a highly trained pilot could have covered up our frickup” then I have no use for them and neither should you.

It’s cold comfort to the 300+ dead now because of this plane that some former F-15 pilot would have known how to immediately diagnose and solve a software issue causing the plane to nosedive at 3,000 ft while it’s supposed to be climbing during takeoff.


hottub
Member since Dec 2012
576 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157


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BHM
Member since Jun 2012
1032 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

This plane should have never been built


You feel the same about the A330???



Airbus A330 crashed at the Toulouse-Blagnac Airport. Airbus subsequently advised A330 operators to disconnect the autopilot and limit pitch attitude in the event of an engine failure at low speed.


Air France 447, clogged pitot tubes caused the plane to stall. First Officer pulled the nose up instead of pushing it down to get out of the stall. Killed all aboard including good friends from Lafayette.

Modern airplanes should not allow a pilot to make the wrong inputs right?


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baldona
Auburn Fan
Florida
Member since Feb 2016
8707 posts
 Online 

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

Again - these “shitty pilots” somehow manage to keep every other plane from flying face first into the ground.

The problem is the plane. Period.


I’m not a pilot so I couldn’t tell you. But this is the problem, and it’s very very simple.

The new planes the pilot takes off and then puts the plane on autopilot almost immediately. How many planes do this? Honestly don’t know? My point is simply the planes tech was made to make the pilots job easier and thereby allowing crappier pilots to be hired.

Then when there is an issue with the autopilot or tech, the new crappier pilots can’t handle the issue.

I fully agree Boeing has an issue, but part of the issue is the demand for the almost fully auto pilot flying these days. If the pilots were required to have the same training as say Southwest requires AND were unable to put the plane into autopilot until they were at cruising altitude, it seems like many of these ‘technology’ based crashes at take off would have been prevented.
This post was edited on 3/15 at 8:36 am


BHM
Member since Jun 2012
1032 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

So why aren’t these pilots crashing other planes?



Here is a wiki page full of pilot error plane crashes...

Pilot Error Crashes


Let me give you a hint, these were not all 737 Max planes.

Secondly, the US has by far the most flying 737 Max planes. Knocking on wood, how many US pilots have crashed one? How many EU pilots have crashed one?


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Cold Drink
LSU Fan
Member since Mar 2016
1524 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
But this is a situation where the computer is making the plane crash while not in autopilot. The MCAS misreads the data from a sensor and cancels out pilot input without even telling the pilot.

Only thing the pilot knows is that he’s trying to climb and the plane is mysteriously pointing toward a rapidly approaching ground while getting airspeed warnings indicating a stall (the opposite of what’s actually happening) and he’s using his full force to pull up on the throttle but it can take over 100lbs of force to counteract the full nose down trimming that the computer is doing for no reason. This is “putting both feet on the dash and pulling up with all your might” territory.

I don’t know about you but I’m not getting on a plane that requires a pilot to quickly diagnose and solve that problem, especially when the plane is barely 3,000 feet in the air.
This post was edited on 3/15 at 11:20 am


GeauxxxTigers23
USA Fan
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
54866 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
It’s a definite flaw with the design that is exacerbated by unskilled pilots.


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When in Rome
USA Fan
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
30971 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

It’s a definite flaw with the design that is exacerbated by unskilled pilots.
This is definitely the best description.


When in Rome
USA Fan
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
30971 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
Seattle Times
quote:

Investigators on the ground near the crash site of the Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX found the plane’s jackscrew, a part that moves the horizontal tail of the aircraft, and it indicates that the tail was in an unusual position, according to an aviation safety consultant briefed on the findings.

The consultant, John Cox, chief executive of Safety Operating Systems and formerly the top safety official for the Air Line Pilots Association, said that Boeing’s new flight control system on the MAX — implicated in the preliminary investigation into the earlier crash of a Lion Air jet in Indonesia — is one of several possible systems that could explain the unusual deflection in the horizontal tail, a control surface that swivels to pitch the plane’s nose up or down.

This, along with evidence from a new satellite-based system that tracked the flight data and revealed similar trajectories on the two flights, is what finally led the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to ground the MAX on Wednesday, following regulators around the world.
This was part of that "new information" the Canadian and American officials mentioned in their announcements.
This post was edited on 3/15 at 11:24 am


When in Rome
USA Fan
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
30971 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
This is an interesting WSJ article about why China moved first on grounding the 737 MAX two days before the FFA announced a decision. I was curious about this when it happened.

quote:

China is forecast to dethrone the U.S. as the world’s biggest aviation market by 2024, according to the International Air Transport Association. That’s made China a vital customer for plane makers Boeing Co. and Airbus SE , and turned the country’s airlines into some of the of biggest in the world in terms of passengers flown and routes served. That growth has also given the country increased leverage over the two big jet makers—and a new level of influence in the global aviation industry.

China’s unilateral decision Monday, following the crash of an Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX a day earlier, idled more than a quarter of Boeing’s active 737 MAX fleet, used by 13 airlines. The move stunned some experts, who said it was premature without knowing the cause of the Ethiopian crash. In the past, China’s airspace regulator, run by Communist Party officials, has registered barely a blip on the international radar; it has routinely followed guidance from the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration. Its decision Monday made a clear statement to the world that it was flexing its muscles.
quote:

That decisiveness, which coincided with a top leadership meeting in Beijing held against the backdrop of U.S.-China trade talks, may have owed more to the country’s murky domestic politics than aviation safety, some analysts say. After a series of plane crashes in the 1990s China significantly improved its aviation safety record, and the nation’s communist rulers have since exercised extreme caution to reassure its population that they are vigilant, acting fast in the face of any perceived risk.

The Chinese authorities’ readiness to defy international convention and ground the MAX while the cause of the crash was still unknown also showed that China now has the self-confidence to challenge aviation’s established order, said Geoffrey Thomas, chief editor of Airline Ratings.
This post was edited on 3/15 at 11:35 am


upgrayedd
Lamar Fan
Lifting at Tobin's house
Member since Mar 2013
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re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
It still blows me away that China doesn't manufacture their own planes using stolen Boeing plans


Hu_Flung_Pu
USA Fan
Central, LA
Member since Jan 2013
17458 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
Can OP put a date in the title. I keep thinking these frickers are crashing every other day.


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777Tiger
LSU Fan
Member since Mar 2011
35125 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
doing a little digging at work about this, don't have much yet but most US carriers operating the Max order it with two MCAS, most foreign carriers, including the two that have crashed, order it with one, in the case of the two, they have a comparator that defaults to Captain's system once it reaches preset parameters, the MCAS can be turned off to turn off(faulty) protections


GeauxxxTigers23
USA Fan
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
54866 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

It still blows me away that China doesn't manufacture their own planes using stolen Boeing plans


China hasn't figured out how to make good engines yet.


Cold Drink
LSU Fan
Member since Mar 2016
1524 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
To me the whole issue is that the new plane design requires an MCAS in the first place. They stretched the 737 beyond its natural limit, creating problems requiring solutions that create additional problems.

Like I said - this plane never should have been built.


When in Rome
USA Fan
Telegraph Road
Member since Jan 2011
30971 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
I'm sure they are trying.

In Joe Sutter's book, he tells an interesting story from 1980:
quote:

I have had a number of particularly interesting experiences in China. While there in 1980, I accompanied Boeing sales representative Matt Chen and Wally Buckley, who at the time was general manager of the Everett Division, for a special tour of the Y-10, a Chinese-built copy of the 707. There at Shanghai International Airport was its Asian clone. Almost every part of this amazing jet--from its aluminum skin to its wiring to windshield glass--had been made in China in hopes of jump-starting an indigenous commercial aircraft industry. The Chinese even wanted to build engines for the Y-10 but found that too challenging, so they used Pratt & Whitney JT3Ds purchased as spares for their fleet of U.S.-built 707s.

Matt, Wally, and I walked around the airplane with upwards of 50 Chinese engineers and officials in close attendance. They watched my inspection with supreme interest, clustering around me and looking where I looked at the fuselage, wings, and landing gear. When I announced that the Y-10 looked like a good airplane, they were obviously relieved. I felt like a general conducting a military review.

We boarded the airplane and entered its flight deck, which was laid out almost exactly like that of a real 707. I tried the controls and found I had to use both hands to turn the wheel. The forces were many, many times higher than they should have been. The same was true with fore-and-aft movements of the control column. I explained to them that there was way too much friction in the control system. I told them they would have to fix it before the airplane's first flight, which was imminent. For guidance, I recommended that they match the feel of the Boeing 707 in Chinese service.

They built only two Y-10s, which quietly disappeared after being flight-tested. China's plans for production of a small fleet of Y-10s for domestic use went by the wayside, perhaps because warming relations with the West made U.S. jets available at far lower cost than building their own.
And yes, I transcribed that whole story from the book


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30
777Tiger
LSU Fan
Member since Mar 2011
35125 posts

re: 737max crashes in Ethiopia. Killing 157
quote:

To me the whole issue is that the new plane design requires an MCAS in the first place.

unfortunately, planes have to be dumbed down for a lot of the international market, design them to protect the plane from the pilots

quote:

They stretched the 737 beyond its natural limit


not so sure that's a factor


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