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re: Zion on the 5 least improved players list in the NBA
Posted on 1/9/24 at 11:15 am to htran90
Posted on 1/9/24 at 11:15 am to htran90
quote:
He's not having to do as much this year with the health of Ingram and McCollum.
I rather this zion for a season than a burnt out one for 30 games.
What is he not doing as much of? He's taking about 1.5 less shots per game this year and averaging 4.2 points less per game. He's essentially doing the same as last year, just not as efficient. Not getting to the line as much and his ft% dropping has hurt his production as well.
Again, I like Zion. But i'm not sure why we're trying to argue that he's playing as good as he did in year two and four. He just hasn't, it's not even debatable.
1
Posted on 1/9/24 at 11:45 am to iwyLSUiwy
Zion is not even a top 30 player this year. His scoring and efficiency is down. If that was due to fitting in with BI and CJ then you would think he would make up by expending more energy in other areas. Yet he's averaging a career low in rebounds, is still a so-so defender, and is still just an OK passer.
Posted on 1/9/24 at 2:05 pm to Balsamic_duck
Later today I’m going to take a look at Zion’s stats in blowouts vs Zion’s stats in close games
I haven’t looked at it yet, but in my head most close games he’s putting up really good stats and most blowouts, wins or losses, he is chilling a bit
That may be him or it may be coaching telling him not to try to overexert himself
Either way, there’s no way for example a player like Kevin Heurter or Dejaunte Murray shouldn’t have been on this list over Zion
I haven’t looked at it yet, but in my head most close games he’s putting up really good stats and most blowouts, wins or losses, he is chilling a bit
That may be him or it may be coaching telling him not to try to overexert himself
Either way, there’s no way for example a player like Kevin Heurter or Dejaunte Murray shouldn’t have been on this list over Zion
Posted on 1/9/24 at 3:50 pm to shel311
quote:Why? Should he take points from BI, CJ, Trey, etc? If we are winning, why is it bad?
21.8ppg for Zion is not good for us.
Posted on 1/9/24 at 3:51 pm to shel311
(no message)
This post was edited on 1/9/24 at 3:55 pm
Posted on 1/9/24 at 4:10 pm to NOSHAU
quote:Because it's not using an elite offensive talent to his fullest extent.
Why?
quote:The 1st 2, absolutely he should because he more efficient than those 2 as a scorer. Trey, Zion can generate looks for him too.
Should he take points from BI, CJ, Trey, etc?
quote:We're currently the 7th seed in the West with the 13th best offense. You can also add that previous sentence as another answer to the "why" question.
If we are winning, why is it bad?
Posted on 1/9/24 at 5:34 pm to shel311
I don’t disagree in principle Shel
I just don’t care as much if he’s the clear #1 now as long as he is the clear #1 by April/May
And I think he will be
I just don’t care as much if he’s the clear #1 now as long as he is the clear #1 by April/May
And I think he will be
Posted on 1/10/24 at 8:50 am to Terrific Tales
Let me ask this question:
If BI is playing the best basketball of his career, and CJ is playing as well as he has played in the last 5 years, do we really want Zion hogging the ball just to stay off of lists like this?
If BI is playing the best basketball of his career, and CJ is playing as well as he has played in the last 5 years, do we really want Zion hogging the ball just to stay off of lists like this?
Posted on 1/10/24 at 8:56 am to bstaceyau19
quote:You're putting a disingenuous spin on it from the get go with your post.
If BI is playing the best basketball of his career, and CJ is playing as well as he has played in the last 5 years, do we really want Zion hogging the ball just to stay off of lists like this?
To answer the genuine version of your question, it's a resounding YES. The best version of this team that gives us the best chance to win is Zion as the clearcut #1 on this team. So 100% yes, absolutely we want to give the ball to Zion more and BI/CJ less.
Also, the best version of this offense with the ball in Zion's hands will still be giving CJ easy looks and also still be giving BI space to work with, so those 2 players aren't losing anything, Zion is making their lives easier.
Posted on 1/10/24 at 10:12 am to bstaceyau19
quote:
If BI is playing the best basketball of his career, and CJ is playing as well as he has played in the last 5 years, do we really want Zion hogging the ball just to stay off of lists like this?
Why does Zion playing better have to negatively effect the way BI and CJ are playing? Zion playing better is even better for both of them. Nobody is in here saying Zion needs the ball more/take away touches from BI and CJ, he's shooting it just about as much as he did last year, you just want him to shoot it as good as he did last year. This isn't a let's sacrifice CJ and BI's ppg so Zion can get more ppg thing, it's a if Zion plays as good as he did in year two and four, this teams offense overall is better.
Posted on 1/10/24 at 10:15 am to iwyLSUiwy
Until Zion cleans up his turnovers this will be Ingrams point to run, with Zion taking over when he goes to the bench.
I truly feel he gets too gassed to be able to run it full game, which is an indictment on him.
Willie also doesn't adjust mid game as well as he should and doesn't do enough things to let Zion be the primary guy late with the ball. I think it's a trust issue. That's an indictment on Willie and Zion.
I truly feel he gets too gassed to be able to run it full game, which is an indictment on him.
Willie also doesn't adjust mid game as well as he should and doesn't do enough things to let Zion be the primary guy late with the ball. I think it's a trust issue. That's an indictment on Willie and Zion.
Posted on 1/10/24 at 10:29 am to shel311
quote:
Also, the best version of this offense with the ball in Zion's hands will still be giving CJ easy looks and also still be giving BI space to work with, so those 2 players aren't losing anything, Zion is making their lives easier.
There is no question that this is the case. Zion gets CJ, Trey, Herb, BI, and everyone else easy looks. His turnovers and stamina are certainly an issue, and I think Zion would also be more efficient playing off of a great creator. But, he is the best creator on this current team. It may not be his optimal NBA role, but it's his best role for this current team.
Posted on 1/10/24 at 10:31 am to mhasen1
quote:
But, he is the best creator on this current team.
Ingram looks far better this year as the creator.
I'm all for games where Zion and Ingram average 13 plus assists between the two of them.
Posted on 1/10/24 at 10:33 am to whatiknowsofar
quote:I do tend to agree with this. I'm not sure night in and night out Zion can do what I'm asking of him.
I truly feel he gets too gassed to be able to run it full game, which is an indictment on him.
Posted on 1/10/24 at 10:35 am to whatiknowsofar
quote:
Until Zion cleans up his turnovers
quote:
Ingram looks far better this year as the creator.
Right now BI has a slightly higher assist rate and slightly lower turnover rate. So this seems correct, but it's not by a wide margin.
As you stated, I think Zion just being in shape would fix both of these, and probably a lot of other things.
Posted on 1/10/24 at 10:36 am to mhasen1
I agree with everyone here that Zion on the ball is the best way to get this team performing at its highest level BUT I do wonder if this regime is hesitant in doing this for several reasons.
First, hes injury prone and hard to build around a guy who’s missed so many games. Hes never fully conditioned as we seen this season. Hes immature on and off the court. Not really a great leader. I think this regime has decided Zion on ball will be situational- playoffs specifically- but they’re not building a whole team around someone who this organization views as not dependable. Hence, hes becoming just a supporting guy rather than a star- I think they sell him on this helps us win but not sure how much Zion will continue to buy that.
First, hes injury prone and hard to build around a guy who’s missed so many games. Hes never fully conditioned as we seen this season. Hes immature on and off the court. Not really a great leader. I think this regime has decided Zion on ball will be situational- playoffs specifically- but they’re not building a whole team around someone who this organization views as not dependable. Hence, hes becoming just a supporting guy rather than a star- I think they sell him on this helps us win but not sure how much Zion will continue to buy that.
Posted on 1/10/24 at 10:39 am to Pels_Yaz
quote:This would never work.
I think this regime has decided Zion on ball will be situational- playoffs specifically
You can't play one way the entire season, then have a switch in scheme this big just in the playoffs and expect it to work seamlessly.
Posted on 1/10/24 at 10:41 am to shel311
quote:
This would never work. You can't play one way the entire season, then have a switch in scheme this big just in the playoffs and expect it to work seamlessly.
Oh I don’t agree with it. I just think thats what this organization is doing. I think Griffin also wants this team to be more BIs than Zions as well. Which I think is dumb favoritism but we all see this.
Posted on 1/10/24 at 10:53 am to Pels_Yaz
quote:
First, hes injury prone and hard to build around a guy who’s missed so many games. Hes never fully conditioned as we seen this season. Hes immature on and off the court. Not really a great leader. I think this regime has decided Zion on ball will be situational- playoffs specifically- but they’re not building a whole team around someone who this organization views as not dependable. Hence, hes becoming just a supporting guy rather than a star- I think they sell him on this helps us win but not sure how much Zion will continue to buy that.
That very well may be what the organization thinks. And if it is, they're just wasting time. They could easily get someone like Pascal Siakam to play the role they're putting Zion in. And he'd probably be better in that role. Siakam's a better defender, shooter, and more available. He's a very good passer and excellent as a secondary creator.
In no way am I advocating for a trade of Zion. We've seen him play at an individual and team level that only a couple of players in the league can match. But if the organization doesn't trust him to get back to or exceed that level, then they're just wasting time.
Posted on 1/10/24 at 10:55 am to shel311
quote:
I think Zion just being in shape would fix both of these
Which brings me back to always saying it was gonna take 20, no 30, ok 50, yes 50, games of Zion with Ingram and CJ to make this work/get Zion in shape
The team has truly changed how they've played for several games now, with just a few hiccups/frick ups. If they continue to play this way and stay healthy(!) watch out. they're on like a 48 or 50 win pace already this season, and I expect them to improve that and get into that elite 55 win territory.
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