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re: Windhorst's Hoop Collective podcast discusses Jrue Holiday trades
Posted on 10/19/20 at 3:02 pm to Dantheman504
Posted on 10/19/20 at 3:02 pm to Dantheman504
Josh Hart was a very respectable 39% 3 point shooter in college for his career. I see no reason why he can't be close to a 40% 3 point shooter in the NBA.
Harris took almost 4x the amount of 3's Hart did in college, and both played lots of minutes all 4 years. Harris was a 41% 3 point shooter for his career.
I love Josh Hart, and I posed the question before and was never answered. How much of a dropoff, if any, do we have by giving Josh Hart all of Jrue's minutes? Do you think Hart can bring just as much to the table on both ends of the court that Jrue does? Hart is a really good individual and team defender. The more consistent he gets from 3, the more dangerous he will be on offense b/c he's already really good at getting to the rim and the free throw line. He is one of the best in all the NBA at the one man fast break.
Harris took almost 4x the amount of 3's Hart did in college, and both played lots of minutes all 4 years. Harris was a 41% 3 point shooter for his career.
I love Josh Hart, and I posed the question before and was never answered. How much of a dropoff, if any, do we have by giving Josh Hart all of Jrue's minutes? Do you think Hart can bring just as much to the table on both ends of the court that Jrue does? Hart is a really good individual and team defender. The more consistent he gets from 3, the more dangerous he will be on offense b/c he's already really good at getting to the rim and the free throw line. He is one of the best in all the NBA at the one man fast break.
4
Posted on 10/19/20 at 3:08 pm to TeddyPadillac
I largely agree here.
While I could see Griffin waiting or running it back out of competitiveness, a sense of wanting to prove something, the best time for a deal is very likely now.
I mean what if KD doesn't come back right? Kyrie toxifies the locker room and the team underperforms? Maybe they become less interested in trading for Jrue as opposed to just making a big off-season sales pitch in FA. Maybe Levert comes back and blows it out the water and they realize they don't want to trade him for Jrue.
The what-ifs are the point.
The deadline just injects a lot of uncertainty and risk. Maybe there are no clear cut favorites again and a ton of buyers, and we would be better off, but maybe several teams under or over-perform and no longer are interested in Jrue. Maybe Jrue gets injured or regresses. Maybe we underperform and Jrue starts with backroom verbal deals for FA and we lose our leverage. Feels like way too early in the rebuilding process to be risking losing maximum value to "prove it" to some vets who are really not on our time schedule long-term. I'd be having meetings with Jrue to gauge his sense of loyalty and expectations and if I think he is trending in a direction we can't sustain, move him this offseason.
While I could see Griffin waiting or running it back out of competitiveness, a sense of wanting to prove something, the best time for a deal is very likely now.
I mean what if KD doesn't come back right? Kyrie toxifies the locker room and the team underperforms? Maybe they become less interested in trading for Jrue as opposed to just making a big off-season sales pitch in FA. Maybe Levert comes back and blows it out the water and they realize they don't want to trade him for Jrue.
The what-ifs are the point.
The deadline just injects a lot of uncertainty and risk. Maybe there are no clear cut favorites again and a ton of buyers, and we would be better off, but maybe several teams under or over-perform and no longer are interested in Jrue. Maybe Jrue gets injured or regresses. Maybe we underperform and Jrue starts with backroom verbal deals for FA and we lose our leverage. Feels like way too early in the rebuilding process to be risking losing maximum value to "prove it" to some vets who are really not on our time schedule long-term. I'd be having meetings with Jrue to gauge his sense of loyalty and expectations and if I think he is trending in a direction we can't sustain, move him this offseason.
Posted on 10/19/20 at 3:08 pm to Dantheman504
quote:
If you take a look at the Nets salary they have no choice but to ship out 1-2 of Prince, LaVert, or Dinwiddie if they want a 3rd star
I also don't think their backup PG behind someone making 35 million will stop them from trading for that 3rd star
Theoretically you are correct, and that is how any normal person would view it, but in the short lifetime of the Kyrie/KD Nets, they have been anything but normal. They have showed a clear deference to their two stars, (i.e. Atkinson firing middle of the year, hiring Steve Nash, starting Deandre Jordan even though they are CLEARLY better with Allen on the floor).
Which is why my point was:
quote:
If Jrue is traded to the Nets we are 100% getting 1 of Dinwiddie or LaVert
Posted on 10/19/20 at 3:14 pm to TeddyPadillac
I just don't see how people are rewarding Harris so heavily for a small 2 season data size while denouncing Hart after his first 3 seasons.
Harris first 4 seasons: 7pts 1ast 1reb
Hart first 3 seasons: 8.5pts 1ast 5reb
Hart spent his first 2 seasons on a shite show Lakers squad and his last season on a shite show Gentry squad.
To answer your question yes I think Hart should be starting or playing a lot of minutes in the future. His shot is going to get better and if his defense gets better than I'm not sure what his max potential is. I want to say he learned some of his dribbles at the Mamba sports academy from the best of the best as well.
Harris first 4 seasons: 7pts 1ast 1reb
Hart first 3 seasons: 8.5pts 1ast 5reb
Hart spent his first 2 seasons on a shite show Lakers squad and his last season on a shite show Gentry squad.
To answer your question yes I think Hart should be starting or playing a lot of minutes in the future. His shot is going to get better and if his defense gets better than I'm not sure what his max potential is. I want to say he learned some of his dribbles at the Mamba sports academy from the best of the best as well.
Posted on 10/19/20 at 3:18 pm to Baron
Let's say the pels theoretically traded Lonzo and then trade Jrue and JJ to the Nets. If we wanted Dinwiddie in that deal they aren't saying no.
Do you really think Kyrie and KD care about Dinwiddie in the grand scheme of things? Deandre was their guy and they got him in. That's it. Dinwiddie was always on contract there, he didn't get brought in because he's buddies with KD and Kyrie.
Do you really think Kyrie and KD care about Dinwiddie in the grand scheme of things? Deandre was their guy and they got him in. That's it. Dinwiddie was always on contract there, he didn't get brought in because he's buddies with KD and Kyrie.
Posted on 10/19/20 at 3:18 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
I love Josh Hart, and I posed the question before and was never answered. How much of a dropoff, if any, do we have by giving Josh Hart all of Jrue's minutes?
I agree with this sentiment. The outside experts selling Jrue to Denver claim Gary Harris as a good return being 80% Jrue, I don't see why Hart can't step up and be that player if we trade Jrue.
To me the real problem with trading Jrue is Lonzo. Do you bench Lonzo if you get a get a starting PG back? I can't imagine that going over well. If you don't get a starting PG back, does say Lonzo/Ingram/Levert/Zion/Center have enough ball handling and creation?
Posted on 10/19/20 at 3:28 pm to TigerinATL
That's what I've been trying to ask/ say. Unless the FO belives Lonzo is in the big picture he should be the first trade to fall for us.
JJ could be packaged in a deal with Jrue or is it possible that JJ can be traded for help around Jrue?
JJ could be packaged in a deal with Jrue or is it possible that JJ can be traded for help around Jrue?
Posted on 10/19/20 at 3:28 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
Hart isn't part of the equation, I love me some Josh Hart and don't want Harris to replace him. Harris would be taking over the spacer role of JJ, because while this team has competent 3 point shooting, JJ is the only 3 point shooter that scares teams. Harris shot 42% from 3 on 6.9 3PA per 36 last season. He shot 47% from 3 on 6.1 per 36 the season before.
Yeah but the but Harris caught the Markelle Fultz yips in the latter stages of the 2019 season, and it continued throughout this season when he was actually healthy enough to play. His shot has been broken for awhile now and it is mind-boggling because as you stated, he has been a pretty good shooter his entire career. Also, there is the issue with his injury history. He is an excellent defender and can really guard smaller quicker guards, but his lack of shooting and injury history makes it hard to swallow that contract.
Posted on 10/19/20 at 3:35 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
I love Josh Hart, and I posed the question before and was never answered. How much of a dropoff, if any, do we have by giving Josh Hart all of Jrue's minutes? Do you think Hart can bring just as much to the table on both ends of the court that Jrue does?
quote:
Do you think Hart can bring just as much to the table on both ends of the court that Jrue does?
The key is this right here. It is going to depend on how much Jrue's defense is valued. Hart is a good defender, but Jrue is elite. Hart is going to bring it on both sides of the court every single night, but he just isn't as talented of a defensive player as Jrue, and has struggled with individual matchups at times when his hustle isn't enough.
quote:
The more consistent he gets from 3, the more dangerous he will be on offense b/c he's already really good at getting to the rim and the free throw line. He is one of the best in all the NBA at the one man fast break.
I agree with you here, but Jrue is still a better offensive player because Jrue can at times be the main creator of an offensive set. You don't want Jrue running your offense full-time, but he is a good 2nd side action option. Josh is really good at catching a swing pass and attacking the basket or shooting, but he isn't a creator. So I guess the question will be who else will be considered the primary and secondary creators on this team.
Posted on 10/19/20 at 4:00 pm to 504Voodoo
I agree with all of that Voodoo. Jrue without a doubt is the better player on both ends of the floor in a vacuum.
Bi and Zion are our 1 and 2. That makes Jrue 3rd at best offensively. While he's a better creator than Hart, we've seen he's really not someone we can rely on in that role.
that is why i want to get rid of Lonzo and bring in a better halfcourt facilitator at the PG position, but i think that person is someone we need to draft.
If you get that facilitator at the PG, playing with BI and Zion, then Hart/Jrue then becomes the 4th wheel playing largely off ball, and i think Hart is actually a better guy on the court for that role than Jrue b/c of his ability to knock down open 3's, get to the rim when he gets run off the 3 point line, and his hustle on the offensive glass. Hart is a better than average defender, but he's not Jrue. I expect Jrue to gaurd anyone and everyone and excel at it. I don't expect Hart to have success against Lebron or KD, but i do expect him to more than hold his own against guys more similar to his size.
Bi and Zion are our 1 and 2. That makes Jrue 3rd at best offensively. While he's a better creator than Hart, we've seen he's really not someone we can rely on in that role.
that is why i want to get rid of Lonzo and bring in a better halfcourt facilitator at the PG position, but i think that person is someone we need to draft.
If you get that facilitator at the PG, playing with BI and Zion, then Hart/Jrue then becomes the 4th wheel playing largely off ball, and i think Hart is actually a better guy on the court for that role than Jrue b/c of his ability to knock down open 3's, get to the rim when he gets run off the 3 point line, and his hustle on the offensive glass. Hart is a better than average defender, but he's not Jrue. I expect Jrue to gaurd anyone and everyone and excel at it. I don't expect Hart to have success against Lebron or KD, but i do expect him to more than hold his own against guys more similar to his size.
Posted on 10/19/20 at 4:04 pm to TeddyPadillac
And I agree with all of this. That's why I'd like to do a S&T with Favors and somehow get Vucevic from Orlando.
Get a pick for Lonzo, trade JJ for a 1,2,or 3 considering on who we want to draft.
Get a pick for Lonzo, trade JJ for a 1,2,or 3 considering on who we want to draft.
Posted on 10/19/20 at 4:34 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
I agree with all of that Voodoo. Jrue without a doubt is the better player on both ends of the floor in a vacuum.
Bi and Zion are our 1 and 2. That makes Jrue 3rd at best offensively. While he's a better creator than Hart, we've seen he's really not someone we can rely on in that role.
that is why i want to get rid of Lonzo and bring in a better halfcourt facilitator at the PG position, but i think that person is someone we need to draft.
If you get that facilitator at the PG, playing with BI and Zion, then Hart/Jrue then becomes the 4th wheel playing largely off ball, and i think Hart is actually a better guy on the court for that role than Jrue b/c of his ability to knock down open 3's, get to the rim when he gets run off the 3 point line, and his hustle on the offensive glass. Hart is a better than average defender, but he's not Jrue. I expect Jrue to gaurd anyone and everyone and excel at it. I don't expect Hart to have success against Lebron or KD, but i do expect him to more than hold his own against guys more similar to his size.
I have nothing else to add here. You are spot on.
Posted on 10/19/20 at 4:36 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:I don't mind waiting until near the trade deadline, but if he doesn't agree to an extension, I really don't see any reason to keep him, certainly not a reason that is more valuable than the return we can get for him.
But I'd definitely be looking out there if he's not signing an extension (which he is unlikely to do).
Posted on 10/19/20 at 5:31 pm to shel311
so as i had mentioned, what we need is a PG that can facilitate better. I'm all for trading Lonzo, and Jrue as well to get back as much as we can. I also would want to draft a PG at #13.
What do you guys think of targeting Joe Ingles to be our PG while we groom our draft pick? He's been succesful as a starter in the PG role, even though Mitchell is their scorer. BI is what Mitchell is. I think Ingles would be a nice fit, and i woudln't be surprised if they wanted to move him b/c their team has not performed well when he starts with Conley, and Ingles has been very ineffective when he came off the bench. He has done well in the PG role starting when Conley was out, as well as internationally. He's averaged near 6 assists a game the last two years since they asked him to be more of a point gaurd.
He's not some great defender, but he isn't bad, and the biggest positive with him is you know he won't take shots away from Bi or Zion, even though he's a 40% career 3 point shooter.
He's got two years left at $10M and $14M, at age 32.
Conley is without a doubt not opting out of his $34M next year, so the Jazz will have salaries at around $120M if they keep the 4 minimums they have (or replace them with minimums). It would make it very hard for them to retain Jordan Clarkson and get an MLE guy at that salary point. They'd be stuck with just one of those, which they may be fine with, but i think it's worth a look to send Lonzo to a team like the Knicks that can absorb his salary, and we take back Ingles as a base of the trade.
What do you guys think of targeting Joe Ingles to be our PG while we groom our draft pick? He's been succesful as a starter in the PG role, even though Mitchell is their scorer. BI is what Mitchell is. I think Ingles would be a nice fit, and i woudln't be surprised if they wanted to move him b/c their team has not performed well when he starts with Conley, and Ingles has been very ineffective when he came off the bench. He has done well in the PG role starting when Conley was out, as well as internationally. He's averaged near 6 assists a game the last two years since they asked him to be more of a point gaurd.
He's not some great defender, but he isn't bad, and the biggest positive with him is you know he won't take shots away from Bi or Zion, even though he's a 40% career 3 point shooter.
He's got two years left at $10M and $14M, at age 32.
Conley is without a doubt not opting out of his $34M next year, so the Jazz will have salaries at around $120M if they keep the 4 minimums they have (or replace them with minimums). It would make it very hard for them to retain Jordan Clarkson and get an MLE guy at that salary point. They'd be stuck with just one of those, which they may be fine with, but i think it's worth a look to send Lonzo to a team like the Knicks that can absorb his salary, and we take back Ingles as a base of the trade.
Posted on 10/19/20 at 6:30 pm to TeddyPadillac
I would rather send Lonzo to New York and take Killian Hayes with their pick and start him over getting Ingles.
Ideally with the Lonzo to NY trade we take back Elfrid to run our 2nd unit.
Ideally with the Lonzo to NY trade we take back Elfrid to run our 2nd unit.
Posted on 10/19/20 at 7:42 pm to Soggymoss
Ideally, that's what i would want to do as well. Get an earlier pick and get back Elfrid. I don't think Hayes will be available at #8, and while i would'nt mind him, i'd much rather Vassell. I'd rather whoever they deem to have the most upside out of Tyrell Terry, Tyrese Maxey, and Kira Lewis at #13. I think Maxey is the guy i like the most of those 3, but i'd be happy with any of them.
That right there would be a dream draft for me. Trade Lonzo for #8 and Elfrid. Draft Vassell and Maxey. Neither of them should start, unless they absolutely deserve it.
That right there would be a dream draft for me. Trade Lonzo for #8 and Elfrid. Draft Vassell and Maxey. Neither of them should start, unless they absolutely deserve it.
Posted on 10/19/20 at 10:02 pm to Dantheman504
quote:
Do you really think Kyrie and KD care about Dinwiddie in the grand scheme of things?
Actually yes, that’s exactly what I think. You didn’t read what I wrote, Dinwiddie and Kyrie are close. A big reason why Kyrie went to the Nets is because of his relationship with Dinwiddie. Dinwiddie gets a lot of credit with recruiting Kyrie.
The Athletic Podcasts, with Nets guard Spencer Dinwiddie. Inside his relationship with Kyrie Irving, when their initial dialogue began, how Brooklyn appealed to free agents, 'silver lining' of 2019-20 without Kevin Durant, more.
quote:
Deandre was their guy and they got him in. That's it. Dinwiddie was always on contract there, he didn't get brought in because he's buddies with KD and Kyrie.
Dinwiddie is very close to Kyrie and KD. The Nets overpaid and overplayed Deandre Jordan because of his relationship with Kyrie/KD. The Nets fired their coach mid season and hired Steve freakin Nash because of his relationship with Kyrie/KD. If the Nets are willing to make those moves to appease Kyrie/KD, idk why it’s outlandish to think they wouldn’t include Dinwiddie in a trade for Jrue.
Look, in a vacuum your reasoning is correct, I agree that’s how it should be. But you are thinking like a rational person and not like someone who thinks the earth is flat.
Posted on 10/20/20 at 9:47 am to Baron
Great thread, Sons. I'm sold.
PG - TBD
Hart
Slim Reaper
Zion
Center - TBD
Lots of future picks
Lets gooooooooooooooo
PG - TBD
Hart
Slim Reaper
Zion
Center - TBD
Lots of future picks
Lets gooooooooooooooo
Posted on 10/20/20 at 10:11 am to Solo
Yeah people don't think we can field a team unless we end up with John Wall, CP3, or Wiggins.
Not sure why I got 2 DVs for saying i'd keep Jrue and add Vucevic
#8,#13/ NAW
Jrue/ Hart
BI/ Hart/ #8, #13
Zion/ Melli
Vucevic/ #8, #13
Dream scenario:
Turn JJ or JJ/ NAW + picks into Marcus Smart
Send out Melli and bring back Christian Wood
Smart/ #8, #13
Jrue/ Hart
BI/ Hart/ $8, #13
Zion/ Wood
Vucevic/ #8, #13
Someone tell me why they think this is a bad set up.
Not sure why I got 2 DVs for saying i'd keep Jrue and add Vucevic
#8,#13/ NAW
Jrue/ Hart
BI/ Hart/ #8, #13
Zion/ Melli
Vucevic/ #8, #13
Dream scenario:
Turn JJ or JJ/ NAW + picks into Marcus Smart
Send out Melli and bring back Christian Wood
Smart/ #8, #13
Jrue/ Hart
BI/ Hart/ $8, #13
Zion/ Wood
Vucevic/ #8, #13
Someone tell me why they think this is a bad set up.
Posted on 10/20/20 at 10:18 am to Dantheman504
Not saying that team would be bad, but I would still be concerned about half court offense.
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