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re: When is Griff honeymoon period over?
Posted on 1/16/21 at 7:44 am to Fun Bunch
Posted on 1/16/21 at 7:44 am to Fun Bunch
I think we just need to trade Ball and maybe Bledsoe and some other small pieces and get two more shooters. We need a guard to can drain the 3 consistently to space the floor for BI and Zion as well as a big that can shoot to replace Melli (who as I’ve been saying ain’t the answer). I think we can get back on track with Bledsoe or NAW, (insert guard who can shoot), BI, Zion, and Adams in the starting lineup along with Kira, Hart, JJ, and (insert big that can shoot) coming off the bench.
This post was edited on 1/16/21 at 7:50 am
1
Posted on 1/16/21 at 8:35 am to Mad Scientist26
With Zion I’m not concerned about his offense. I expect him to develop there, now 2 seasons from now if he’s shown little progress then we can talk.
The defense on the other hand, that’s a whole other issue, and a lot of it stems from his laziness on that end, which has nothing to do with how many games he’s played. You either have it or you don’t, and I don’t see how he suddenly becomes this guy who displays great effort on defense.
Now maybe some of it is from his offensive output, and he’s just tired, but I have two issues with that. First being there are guys in this league that have way more on their shoulders offensively who play harder on defense than Zion, so that’s not a reason, it’s an excuse. Secondly, for all the talk about how his body looks and the kind of shape he’s in, and he does look 10x better than he did in the bubble, he’s still nowhere near Duke Zion. They have to figure out a way to get him back there.
The defense on the other hand, that’s a whole other issue, and a lot of it stems from his laziness on that end, which has nothing to do with how many games he’s played. You either have it or you don’t, and I don’t see how he suddenly becomes this guy who displays great effort on defense.
Now maybe some of it is from his offensive output, and he’s just tired, but I have two issues with that. First being there are guys in this league that have way more on their shoulders offensively who play harder on defense than Zion, so that’s not a reason, it’s an excuse. Secondly, for all the talk about how his body looks and the kind of shape he’s in, and he does look 10x better than he did in the bubble, he’s still nowhere near Duke Zion. They have to figure out a way to get him back there.
Posted on 1/16/21 at 8:50 am to CP3forMVP
Keep in mind lots of players fail to exhibit good defense early in their careers.
AD was pretty terrible at team and individual defense outside of hunting for block stats his first couple seasons. Everyone thought he’d come into the league and at a minimum look like a young Marcus Camby but his offensive development, which was also not there his first seasons, far out paced his defensive development.
Frankly it was only late in his time here where he was playing defense consistently well and not having mental mistakes.
I think one interesting thing that came out of the ESPN broadcast is that Griff/Gundy do seem serious about Zion being more of a 4/3 than a 4/5. They talked about how they are slowly trying to develop him into a perimeter defender and improve his jumpshot and other skillsets so he can operate better in that capacity because they just don’t see him as a 5.
AD was pretty terrible at team and individual defense outside of hunting for block stats his first couple seasons. Everyone thought he’d come into the league and at a minimum look like a young Marcus Camby but his offensive development, which was also not there his first seasons, far out paced his defensive development.
Frankly it was only late in his time here where he was playing defense consistently well and not having mental mistakes.
I think one interesting thing that came out of the ESPN broadcast is that Griff/Gundy do seem serious about Zion being more of a 4/3 than a 4/5. They talked about how they are slowly trying to develop him into a perimeter defender and improve his jumpshot and other skillsets so he can operate better in that capacity because they just don’t see him as a 5.
Posted on 1/16/21 at 8:54 am to 50_Tiger
I’m not pissed at Griff for the roster (yet).
I’m pissed he hired a coach who had 1 winning season in 4 years in Detroit rather than trying to be creative with the hire.
I’m pissed he hired a coach who had 1 winning season in 4 years in Detroit rather than trying to be creative with the hire.
Posted on 1/16/21 at 9:00 am to 50_Tiger
the thing Griffin needs to explain is SVG. it's appearing to be a really bad hire and may set our team back bigly
Posted on 1/16/21 at 9:02 am to duyp
quote:
He’s getting double/triple team, what do you expect from him?
something other than 1 offensive move he's shown
he's also TERRIBLE on defense, shows very little desire (awareness?) in distributing the ball, and hasn't improved his FTs or handle
games don't matter. time does. he's not as good this year as he was last year as a fat, recovering zion. that's a major concern
Posted on 1/16/21 at 9:07 am to duyp
quote:
AD was like this also with no outside shot, he developed it over time.
Zion likely never will be a plus shooter, but that wouldn't matter as much if he was better at passing. better FTs are our rational best hope
his distribution may be worse than his defense and THAT is concerning. being able to distribute out of his drive would make him and our offense truly dynamic. this isn't just a Zion problem, because it's a SVG problem as well.
SVG looks to be an absolutely terrible coach for Zion's development, ESPECIALLY if you're looking at games played to gauge his development arc
Posted on 1/16/21 at 9:09 am to whodat24
quote:
No shite. You want him to develop a jumper 40 games into his career? Giannis won 2 MVPs without a jumper I think Zion will be fine
Not to pick a side here but this is a faulty comparison. Giannis is 6'11" and generally one of, if not the, biggest/tallest players on the court at any given time.
Zion is 6'6". He gets a ton of shots blocked whereas Giannis does not.
Zion, with his height, will need to start hitting jump shots to keep the defense honest. I'm not saying he needs to develop one overnight. He's young. But he does need to develop one if he's going to be a legit force.
People keep talking about spacing with this guy or that guy. It's time to start putting the blame squarely where it belongs. The 6'6" guy who basically has one move.
He also desperately needs to learn has to stop his drive and pass out. You have to be able to read when it's not there and adjust. Again, it doesn't have to happen overnight, but it does need to happen.
This post was edited on 1/16/21 at 9:11 am
Posted on 1/16/21 at 9:13 am to SlowFlowPro
Keep in mind people, shite like this:
LINK
LINK
LINK
That shite is gone.
Which was one way we got Zion a lot of his easy points and highlight plays. And it’s gone because it was part of what got us killed in the aggregate. Zion was allowed to basically sell out in rebounding to be the first out in transition while the rest of the team
was attempting to break pace records behind him. Getting him in those easily exploitable transition low post positions where Lonzo or Jrue could feed him on the break or across court and get an easy bucket...But we were bleeding out on defense and giving up a ton of extra chance points in the process. Since it didn’t help Gentry would also load up lineups with poor defenders or rebounders to chase spacing.
I feel like if what they said on ESPN was true and we may start seeing Zion matching up on the perimeter defensively more often in the future, those might be able to come back in a more healthy fashion. But IDK
LINK
LINK
LINK
That shite is gone.
Which was one way we got Zion a lot of his easy points and highlight plays. And it’s gone because it was part of what got us killed in the aggregate. Zion was allowed to basically sell out in rebounding to be the first out in transition while the rest of the team
was attempting to break pace records behind him. Getting him in those easily exploitable transition low post positions where Lonzo or Jrue could feed him on the break or across court and get an easy bucket...But we were bleeding out on defense and giving up a ton of extra chance points in the process. Since it didn’t help Gentry would also load up lineups with poor defenders or rebounders to chase spacing.
I feel like if what they said on ESPN was true and we may start seeing Zion matching up on the perimeter defensively more often in the future, those might be able to come back in a more healthy fashion. But IDK
Posted on 1/16/21 at 9:16 am to bonethug0180
quote:
He also desperately needs to learn has to stop his drive and pass out. You have to be able to read when it's not there and adjust. Again, it doesn't have to happen overnight, but it does need to happen.
this was something i assumed was going to be more a part of his game from what we saw at Duke, but it's the biggest issue on offense
and let me be clear, i'm not saying zion is a bust or anything close to it, but his game in year 2 leaves MAJOR questions as to his ultimate developmental arc/potential. this year is not showing his generational greatness potential that we all thought he had coming out of college. he still projects to be a good player, just not a great one. year 3 is a big year and does anyone expect him to make a leap by next year into the elite? it doesn't look that way right now
Posted on 1/16/21 at 9:18 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
his distribution may be worse than his defense and THAT is concerning. being able to distribute out of his drive would make him and our offense truly dynamic. this isn't just a Zion problem, because it's a SVG problem as well.
AD took nearly 7 seasons to not be a terrible passer and nearly that long to be a competent ball handling big man that can do more than simple dribble actions. Despite being heralded as a big with a guards background.
Zion is far ahead of that curve right now skill wise so I’m not really worried.
Posted on 1/16/21 at 9:18 am to Bronc
quote:
Zion was allowed to basically sell out in rebounding to be the first out in transition while the rest of the team
the entire point of acquiring a great rebounder like Adams was, theoretically, to continue this without the negative
quote:
Getting him in those easily exploitable transition low post positions where Lonzo or Jrue could feed him on the break or across court and get an easy bucket...But we were bleeding out on defense and giving up a ton of extra chance points in the process
again, Adams solves this problem completely
Posted on 1/16/21 at 9:21 am to Bronc
quote:
AD took nearly 7 seasons to not be a terrible passer
AD was putting up 20/10 with almost 3 blocks per game (4.1 stocks/game) and shooting FTs at almost 80% his 2nd year
AD didn't have to be an even good passer b/c he was much better in his 2nd year. Zion has one move and lacks the defense or efficiency AD had to compensate. if Zion doesn't want to develop other ways to score, he HAS to develop ways to facilitate. AD was much better on offense so he didn't have to
*ETA: by year 3 AD was effectively elite at shooting for a big and nobody expect Zion to be anywhere near that in a year
This post was edited on 1/16/21 at 9:22 am
Posted on 1/16/21 at 9:23 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
the entire point of acquiring a great rebounder like Adams was, theoretically, to continue this without the negative
No it wasn’t. It was to have a true defensive anchor and vocal court leader.
Adams can’t box out and rebound over multiple defenders, it still takes a team effort if you don’t want to be giving up extra possessions. You really want this team be letting guys like AD have uncontested chances at an offensive board because you want to leak Zion out in transition?
This post was edited on 1/16/21 at 9:25 am
Posted on 1/16/21 at 9:24 am to SlowFlowPro
Super early in a season with almost no training camp/preseason, a new coach, and basically VERY little offense installed.
I'm not ready to call anything about how he may look heading into year 3 when we still have so much of year 2 left. Plenty of time to turn things around.
I'm just wondering with limited time off between games if it's better to focus on offensive sets or individual workouts more. Working on Zion individually may have a greater impact if we can speed up the process of him learning those things.
Maybe do a split and have some guys like Zion, Hayes, and NAW work more individually during practice and let guys like Adams, Ingram, Bledsoe, Ball, Hart, Melli, and JJ work on offensive sets.
2 of the former 3 mentioned players (Zion and NAW) can easily create for themselves and definitely need more individual work than learning offensive sets (though they need both, you have to lean one way more right now). Hayes needs more specialized work to teach him to read plays on defense better and where he needs to space on offense.
I'm not ready to call anything about how he may look heading into year 3 when we still have so much of year 2 left. Plenty of time to turn things around.
I'm just wondering with limited time off between games if it's better to focus on offensive sets or individual workouts more. Working on Zion individually may have a greater impact if we can speed up the process of him learning those things.
Maybe do a split and have some guys like Zion, Hayes, and NAW work more individually during practice and let guys like Adams, Ingram, Bledsoe, Ball, Hart, Melli, and JJ work on offensive sets.
2 of the former 3 mentioned players (Zion and NAW) can easily create for themselves and definitely need more individual work than learning offensive sets (though they need both, you have to lean one way more right now). Hayes needs more specialized work to teach him to read plays on defense better and where he needs to space on offense.
Posted on 1/16/21 at 9:25 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
the entire point of acquiring a great rebounder like Adams was, theoretically, to continue this without the negative
Exactly.
It’s why the Lakers play a center with AD so he can leak out. It’s why you see AD have games where he gets 4 rebounds.
Posted on 1/16/21 at 9:27 am to Bronc
Adams isn't going to be the only guy rebounding, Zo and Ingram are fine at rebounding as well. you don't need 4-5 guys boxing out, especially in today's NBA
if we're going to play a guy like Zo, he's better at rebounding than he is at potentially scoring on the break so it's a valid exchange with Zion. plus we're not even really giving up height in rebounding.
if we're going to play a guy like Zo, he's better at rebounding than he is at potentially scoring on the break so it's a valid exchange with Zion. plus we're not even really giving up height in rebounding.
Posted on 1/16/21 at 9:29 am to bonethug0180
quote:
I'm not ready to call anything about how he may look heading into year 3
i guess we can finally evaluate Zion in 2023
Posted on 1/16/21 at 9:29 am to SlowFlowPro
I mean, both Zion and Ball are 6'6".
And watching these last 2 games without him, there are things he does on defense and rebounding which we definitely lacked.
You can knock his offense, but he is needed more than some of these other guys.
And watching these last 2 games without him, there are things he does on defense and rebounding which we definitely lacked.
You can knock his offense, but he is needed more than some of these other guys.
Posted on 1/16/21 at 9:31 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i guess we can finally evaluate Zion in 2023
Nah. You are talking about year 3 when we aren't even a quarter into year 2.
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