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re: Was Butler worth Jrue? The Pels didn't think so...
Posted on 11/12/18 at 9:22 am to TeddyPadillac
Posted on 11/12/18 at 9:22 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:
Why are people assuming the Wolves don't want Covington?
I agree. He's a support piece you want around Town. But the chance they do something dumb is high given their FO + ownership.
I wish they had more guys worth pursuing because I think they could be sellers.
Ziller makes the case that they should reframe their timeline around Towns and the next 4 years, rather than pushing to get back in the playoffs immediately
0
Posted on 11/12/18 at 9:25 am to TigerinATL
quote:
I'm sure they had other offers with decent current players on the table
Tough to say. Maybe those early season Miami offers, but unclear if those were still available. Butler's age, contract demands, + the awful, everyone has stink, deteriorating situation certainly didn't help his value.
I wonder how long Philly has had this offer for Butler.
Posted on 11/12/18 at 9:32 am to corndeaux
The Wolves were willing to do Moore, Hill and two firsts with little or no protection. The thinking was that they would flip Hill and one first for someone else who would help them now. So, Wolves could have walked away with Moore, let's say Bazemore, and the Pels 2021 pick
The Pels hesitation was that second pick. Which I understand. Especially with the fact that keeping Butler would have cost you an arm and a leg and also likely Randle and maybe even Niko.
I think Dell made the right call here. Not only are you possibly losing all that, but we have seen Jrue take steps back when so many high usage guys are on the roster.
There will be a better opportunity down the line. Not a better player in a vacuum, but a better fit with more fixed costs
The Pels hesitation was that second pick. Which I understand. Especially with the fact that keeping Butler would have cost you an arm and a leg and also likely Randle and maybe even Niko.
I think Dell made the right call here. Not only are you possibly losing all that, but we have seen Jrue take steps back when so many high usage guys are on the roster.
There will be a better opportunity down the line. Not a better player in a vacuum, but a better fit with more fixed costs
Posted on 11/12/18 at 9:37 am to Crewz
Thanks for the scoop, as always.
Posted on 11/12/18 at 9:46 am to whatiknowsofar
Hard to give up two firsts for a guy you likely won’t be able to keep. OKC took a chance on PG and it worked, somewhat I guess. They are in tax hell and not a title contender, but kept the superstar.
I agree we can likely find a friendlier deal for us later.
I agree we can likely find a friendlier deal for us later.
Posted on 11/12/18 at 10:04 am to TeddyPadillac
Jimmy would have re-signed. Teams got to speak with his agent. That wasn't the worry.
The worry is giving Jimmy that 5 year max and then also not having picks to supplement the roster with cheap young talent. Also, you lose guys like Randle because you have no money to pay them moving forward.
It basically locks your team in as Jrue-Butler-AD and maybe Niko. Lets say you do that and still get your butt kicked. AD looks at the roster and sees no way for it to improve because you have no flexibility and no picks to trade. Why would he extend?
The worry is giving Jimmy that 5 year max and then also not having picks to supplement the roster with cheap young talent. Also, you lose guys like Randle because you have no money to pay them moving forward.
It basically locks your team in as Jrue-Butler-AD and maybe Niko. Lets say you do that and still get your butt kicked. AD looks at the roster and sees no way for it to improve because you have no flexibility and no picks to trade. Why would he extend?
Posted on 11/12/18 at 10:10 am to Crewz
quote:I can see that. If we could have convinced them to take a 1 and a 2 instead of 2 1's, I think I would have taken that gamble to give AD a hope for a true "Big 3."
The Wolves were willing to do Moore, Hill and two firsts with little or no protection. The thinking was that they would flip Hill and one first for someone else who would help them now. So, Wolves could have walked away with Moore, let's say Bazemore, and the Pels 2021 pick
The Pels hesitation was that second pick. Which I understand. Especially with the fact that keeping Butler would have cost you an arm and a leg and also likely Randle and maybe even Niko.
I think Dell made the right call here. Not only are you possibly losing all that, but we have seen Jrue take steps back when so many high usage guys are on the roster.
There will be a better opportunity down the line. Not a better player in a vacuum, but a better fit with more fixed costs
Posted on 11/12/18 at 10:10 am to Crewz
Now that is fascinating.
That top 3 is as good (on paper) as anyone's outside GS. If, and it's a big if, they could afford to keep Mirotic, that has the makings of a conference finalist (on paper).
Tend to agree. If this could have been made this summer, before all the shite, maybe I think differently. But the whole situation has been terrible. Butler is really, really good, but don't think he's worth the nonsense + the $$ he wants at his age/mileage
That top 3 is as good (on paper) as anyone's outside GS. If, and it's a big if, they could afford to keep Mirotic, that has the makings of a conference finalist (on paper).
quote:
think Dell made the right call here
Tend to agree. If this could have been made this summer, before all the shite, maybe I think differently. But the whole situation has been terrible. Butler is really, really good, but don't think he's worth the nonsense + the $$ he wants at his age/mileage
Posted on 11/12/18 at 10:13 am to Crewz
quote:
There will be a better opportunity down the line.
Such as
Posted on 11/12/18 at 10:13 am to Crewz
If he was going to resign then I would have definitely done that.
It’s not often you get to add talent like that.
If you do it and it fails as in your not a title contender, I can accept that. We went down swinging.
If AD can’t commit to the extension in the offseason, then why would Butler, we’d essentially be starting over.
I don’t see where the negative to the signing would be. Yeah you wouldnt have picks in the rebuild, but who cares at that point, just means the rebuild will take a bit longer.
It’s not often you get to add talent like that.
If you do it and it fails as in your not a title contender, I can accept that. We went down swinging.
If AD can’t commit to the extension in the offseason, then why would Butler, we’d essentially be starting over.
I don’t see where the negative to the signing would be. Yeah you wouldnt have picks in the rebuild, but who cares at that point, just means the rebuild will take a bit longer.
Posted on 11/12/18 at 10:22 am to TeddyPadillac
You are not considering all the talent you are losing also. Again, you lose Moore, you lose Randle after this year and your chances of losing Niko go way up. You also lose part of Jrue Holiday. Not to mention the opportunity cost of what other players those assets could have gotten you. Example - lets say you do Solo and a pick for a solid wing this year and later down the line that 2021 pick nests you a very good big like we got in the Niko trade.
Would you trade Moore, solid wing like Bazemore or Barnes or Porter, Randle, part of Jrue's aggressiveness, and a big like Niko for Jimmy?
If you answer yes, then nobody should have ever criticized Dell for his short sighted moves in the past, because this would have been the ultimate short sighted move.
Would you trade Moore, solid wing like Bazemore or Barnes or Porter, Randle, part of Jrue's aggressiveness, and a big like Niko for Jimmy?
If you answer yes, then nobody should have ever criticized Dell for his short sighted moves in the past, because this would have been the ultimate short sighted move.
Posted on 11/12/18 at 10:23 am to TeddyPadillac
Jimmy is an amazing talent, but not necessarily a great teammate. His play and his attittude do not fit what the FO has been trying to cultivate here. Committing to him through age 34 season while giving away an unprotected or top 1 protected 2021 pick is a huge gamble and we just lost gambling on a mercurial talent last year. With AD about to enter supermax territory, we need to start thinking about cheap depth too.
This post was edited on 11/12/18 at 10:24 am
Posted on 11/12/18 at 10:25 am to TeddyPadillac
I agree with you a core of AD Holiday Butler and Niko would be as good as anyone not named the warriors. I know they would be super expensive but I think it would have been worth risk.
Posted on 11/12/18 at 10:33 am to BSB1988
I dont think Niko stays if Jimmy comes. He is not a big fan of Butler.
I think you end up losing a lot in this trade long term
I think you end up losing a lot in this trade long term
Posted on 11/12/18 at 10:35 am to Crewz
Michael.
In Your opinion Covington is worth consideration?
In Your opinion Covington is worth consideration?
Posted on 11/12/18 at 10:36 am to pawel
He laid an egg last year in the playoffs.
I am not sure if he is for real (at that level)...
I am not sure if he is for real (at that level)...
Posted on 11/12/18 at 10:43 am to Crewz
If Niko would not re-sign because of butler then yes I agree good move not to make the trade.
Posted on 11/12/18 at 10:51 am to Crewz
I agree with most of what you said. It is giving up a lot, and it might not work out. It might take Jrue aggressiveness away I agree, but that shouldn’t be a reason not to add talent.
The part of losing Randle I don’t agree with. I like Randle, but there’s little chance we keep him next year no matter what we do. What’s the difference between Butler max or Porter/Moore or Barnes/Moore when it comes to our total salary? Even adding Bazemore over Solo makes it almost impossible to keep both Niko and Randle.
The only way we keep them both is if we can do something like solo for Dedmon/bembry. We have to cut salary(Solo) to make it to where we can keep them both, unless Randle is going to sign another short contract for less than he’s likely worth with a ton of cap space available this offseason.
The part of losing Randle I don’t agree with. I like Randle, but there’s little chance we keep him next year no matter what we do. What’s the difference between Butler max or Porter/Moore or Barnes/Moore when it comes to our total salary? Even adding Bazemore over Solo makes it almost impossible to keep both Niko and Randle.
The only way we keep them both is if we can do something like solo for Dedmon/bembry. We have to cut salary(Solo) to make it to where we can keep them both, unless Randle is going to sign another short contract for less than he’s likely worth with a ton of cap space available this offseason.
Posted on 11/12/18 at 11:14 am to TeddyPadillac
elephant-hunting is a tremendous risk and not something that i'm comfortable with, with this team, at this time.
how much of a risk?
knowing what we know now, would you rather have:
1) cousins on a max (healthy)
2) buddy hield and that 1st round pick (either a rookie or trading it for something else)
thats not even mentioning evans (maybe they re-sign him, maybe they dont, but they had his bird rights)
the season is too young to do a deal like this, with everything that is riding on it. and...they dont have anyone to step in for moore in the proposed butler trade
how much of a risk?
knowing what we know now, would you rather have:
1) cousins on a max (healthy)
2) buddy hield and that 1st round pick (either a rookie or trading it for something else)
thats not even mentioning evans (maybe they re-sign him, maybe they dont, but they had his bird rights)
the season is too young to do a deal like this, with everything that is riding on it. and...they dont have anyone to step in for moore in the proposed butler trade
Posted on 11/12/18 at 11:24 am to Crewz
quote:I like it in theory, but with no option to immediately extend Butler, I simply would not trust his word at this point that deal could be done in the offseason.
The Wolves were willing to do Moore, Hill and two firsts with little or no protection
Getting burned there with Jimmy changing his mind would be brutal. Especially when we know Jimmy has caused a mess in both of his previous teams, it would not be surprising at all if he weren't totally content after this season and changed his tune and wanted to try out free agency.
That and no protection at all on the picks would probably be a dealbreaker for me, even if we hypothetically could 100% know Jimmy would re-up with us. We'd be 1 injury away to our Big 3 from not being guaranteed a playoff spot, it would have to have been top 3 protected IMO.
This post was edited on 11/12/18 at 11:29 am
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