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re: TWolves want to trade Rubio
Posted on 6/27/17 at 9:45 am to cgrand
Posted on 6/27/17 at 9:45 am to cgrand
quote:
but what does AD/DC really mean?
that is where the discussion here really is, i think. and that's fine. good points are being made by everyone.
quote:
how many minutes together, and when?
the temptation is going to be to stagger them...then what?
so if you cant come up with a plan that maximizes and satisfies Davis/Cousins together on the court, then the whole experiment is DOA. that must come first, however that looks best to you.
only then can you start answer questions about staggering and how you play w/ only 1 big on the floor
0
Posted on 6/27/17 at 10:13 am to TigerinATL
Is hill working on that damn jumper this offseason? That's all we need him to do.
Posted on 6/27/17 at 11:01 am to corndeaux
quote:
Yes, Rubio is a very smart player and can adapt. The problem is that defenses will ignore him off the ball. He has little utility on offense w/o the ball in his hands. The role he would take on is not a great fit for his skills. If you want Rubio to work, he needs the ball. Again, why is Minnesota dumping him now? He's moving off ball and he is a liability there. You can't wave poor shooting off w/ BBIQ.
That doesn't mean he can't fit or it won't work, but that is a legit problem no one is addressing. All due respect to Ballhawk, but 42% on long 2s is something teams will gladly give up to Rubio every time.
And maybe that's a worthwhile compromise if Holiday is out since Rubio has other ways to help and his deal is so cheap and short. But that's not a great fit in my mind
Rondo managed to make it work in Boston. We're not going to get dynamic 3 and D wings that are great at multiple facets of the game. shite, Solomon Hill is practically penciled in for one of the perimeter spots anyways.
Rubio would give this team a certain flexibility. Cousins sits/gets in foul trouble and you stagger Davis/Cousins throughout the game? Great. You can run a more traditional offense with a stretch 4 like Cunningham, and you have a PG that can get AD involved.
The only successful season we had with AD was the year we brought in QPon and Cole. I think that season showed a very large weakness in our team. We're not a smart basketball team, and our inexperience also hurts us.
I personally think you're simplifying this too much. Rubio's shooting is a concern, yes. Of course people are concerned about it. But he checks off other boxes that this team is sorely lacking. The reality is we don't have a ton of options this offseason. People are just being realistic. Here's a guy who is publicly on the trade block.
Is he going to fix all of our problems? No. But we don't have access to those guys.
- He isn't careless with the ball. Low turnover rate.
- Great FT shooter and gets to the line at a decent clip.
- Rebounds pretty well.
- Good defender. High steal rate.
Tired of these "we're ok at a bunch of things" players. It's not working. It hasn't worked. Why is Wesley Matthews or Jeff Teague going to be any different than Eric Gordon or Jrue Holiday? Give me some guys who are actually fricking good at some facets of the game.
Posted on 6/27/17 at 12:11 pm to ShamelessPel
quote:
Rondo managed to make it work in Boston. We're not going to get dynamic 3 and D wings that are great at multiple facets of the game.
A lot to unpack here:
First that was 5+ years ago. Game has changed a good bit since then. Doesn't mean there isn't a place in the league for a guy like Rondo or Rubio. But there are challenges now that didn't exist back then for players like them.
Second, Rondo played next to Pierce, Allen, and Garnett. You're using his time next to those guys as an example of being able to overcome no shooting from a PG in one sentence, and then in the next saying the Pels won't have enough talented players on the roster, so they need a guy like that.
Third, those Boston offenses when Rondo was taking over more (2009 on) were bottom half of the league, at best
quote:
Cousins sits/gets in foul trouble and you stagger Davis/Cousins throughout the game? Great. You can run a more traditional offense with a stretch 4 like Cunningham, and you have a PG that can get AD involved.
like cgrand, this is coming from the wrong angle for me. you're building around an event that is not going to happen every game and then you're talking about potentially changing your scheme up for that less likely event. it's making a rule for the exception
like i said in a previous post, the discussion is more about how we see the team playing overall. we're in different places and that is fine.
quote:
The reality is we don't have a ton of options this offseason. People are just being realistic
Me too. I've said numerous times that I like Rubio. Said in that post that I'm okay with him on the team (unless they trade Moore for him). That he just might be the best option available given where they are and I understand that. I certainly would take Rubio over Matthews and Teague
But I do not buy what you and Ballhawk are saying about him being a particularly good fit. Doesnt mean it will be a disaster, but there are challenges, even with all the things he does bring to the table.
Perhaps he comes to NO and it works. I will happily eat crow and start a thread proclaiming you were both right and I was wrong.
Posted on 6/27/17 at 12:51 pm to corndeaux
I guess my thing is that while he's not the best overall spacer, it's again a misnomer to state that we are going to zig rather than zag. I mean, on the surface, it appears that way but in reality I think Gentry is mostly going to stick his guns and run a lot of PnR with AD who is the best at that. Rubio is very good in that respect and is a versatile defender.
I certainly do understand and even cede a bit to your point about Rubio being ball dominant and lacking the three point shooting. I just believe if he can be adequate from that range (35%) then he fits with everything else.
My biggest argument for Rubio is his contract and his IQ. Both are better than Jrue.
I also agree that trading Moore, arguably our best shooter on the roster right now, is a fool's errand as you're trading one issue for another. This is why in my estimation Jrue for Rubio and dumpable asset is palatable.
If we were to trade Moore I'd want someone like Evan Fournier. Moore + QPon + 1st I think could get that done.
The last point I have isn't so much about Rubio but about Hill. Bringing on Rubio means you are believing that Hill is going to take the next step in his game and help space the floor thus opening up lanes for Rubio to drive and get to the line, conduct PnRs or even spread the floor some himself. I think Hill has the capability but it's just a matter of putting it together. That's a different discussion altogether.
Great points all around corndeaux. I love good basketball discussion.
I certainly do understand and even cede a bit to your point about Rubio being ball dominant and lacking the three point shooting. I just believe if he can be adequate from that range (35%) then he fits with everything else.
My biggest argument for Rubio is his contract and his IQ. Both are better than Jrue.
I also agree that trading Moore, arguably our best shooter on the roster right now, is a fool's errand as you're trading one issue for another. This is why in my estimation Jrue for Rubio and dumpable asset is palatable.
If we were to trade Moore I'd want someone like Evan Fournier. Moore + QPon + 1st I think could get that done.
The last point I have isn't so much about Rubio but about Hill. Bringing on Rubio means you are believing that Hill is going to take the next step in his game and help space the floor thus opening up lanes for Rubio to drive and get to the line, conduct PnRs or even spread the floor some himself. I think Hill has the capability but it's just a matter of putting it together. That's a different discussion altogether.
Great points all around corndeaux. I love good basketball discussion.
Posted on 6/27/17 at 1:02 pm to corndeaux
quote:
like cgrand, this is coming from the wrong angle for me. you're building around an event that is not going to happen every game and then you're talking about potentially changing your scheme up for that less likely event. it's making a rule for the exception
You can only use Cousins as Point Center for XX minutes a game. This staff has at least shown an understanding that you now have two players capable of being out there without the other and keeping the team afloat. I think that understanding would carry over into staggering Rubio with Davis more than Cousins.
quote:
First that was 5+ years ago. Game has changed a good bit since then.
You're right. Boston buttered it's bread on the defensive end. Coincidentally, the defensive end of the floor is our current strength. Yes, the game has changed, but there is still room for grind-it-out teams if done right. We could easily be a younger, more talented, 16-17 Grizzlies.
I'm just operating under a certain timeline. Be competent enough next year to make the playoffs and avoid the Warriors in the first round. Keep Cousins around. Start building an IDENTITY for 2019 when the Warriors are going to have to pay out the arse for their team and continue to lose depth (hopefully).
I don't think Rubio is a sure thing by any stretch. There are problems. I 100% agree with you. I'm just tired of having a bunch of mediocre players around Davis (and now Cousins) that don't do anything exceptionally well.
Posted on 6/27/17 at 1:15 pm to ShamelessPel
quote:
Start building an IDENTITY for 2019 when the Warriors are going to have to pay out the arse for their team and continue to lose depth (hopefully).
This what my whole thought is based on. I don't think Rubio is a franchise changing third banana by any stretch of the imagination. I like the fact that is contract is up in two years, plays above average defense, won't kill you in games because he doesn't turn the ball over with his high IQ, and will help you make the playoffs (should be an assumed given with AD and Boogie). In that case you're then able to be a player in 2019 Free Agency with Klay.
Posted on 6/27/17 at 1:36 pm to corndeaux
quote:
you're building around an event that is not going to happen every game and then you're talking about potentially changing your scheme up for that less likely event. it's making a rule for the exception
man i really disagree with that, but let me explain why...even the MOST optimistic view of the current/realistically possible roster reveals that the two best players, by a yawning chasm, will be davis & cousins. and when neither are on the floor, this team will struggle, mightily, not just against good teams but also against middling teams that happen to be deep.
thats what i meant by my temptation comment...the temptation to stagger the two is likely to be impossible to resist, if only to avoid that very scenario. so...in my view, we'd better be ready to run 50% AD/DC, and 50% small ball because thats the reality of what this roster has to offer as far as lineup options
Posted on 6/27/17 at 1:52 pm to cgrand
quote:
thats what i meant by my temptation comment...the temptation to stagger the two is likely to be impossible to resist,
I think it shouldn't be resisted. Cousins seems like the kind of player that will be more locked in on defense if you feed him on offense. Letting him feast on 2nd units seems like the perfect way to keep him happy and engaged. I also like that this team can be 3 teams in 1 that will make it really hard for other teams to match and scheme for.
Starting 5
Holiday
FA vet like Afflalo?
Hill
AD
Cousins
6 minute mark Cousins goes out and you shift to small ball lock down defense
Holiday
Moore
Hill
Cunningham
AD
2 minute mark Cousins comes back in and you shift to a high powered (for a bench unit) offense with 3 spacers around Crawford/Boogie
Crawford
Moore
Justin Holiday
Cunningham
Cousins
Posted on 6/27/17 at 2:27 pm to ShamelessPel
ShamelessPel and Ballhawk 
good discussion all around. agree on the identity part 100%. be good enough now and work towards something better going forward
good discussion all around. agree on the identity part 100%. be good enough now and work towards something better going forward
Posted on 6/27/17 at 2:32 pm to corndeaux
I am a big Rubio supporter, but after digging into it more, I see a problem with him on this team. His 3pt% in the 2nd and 4th quarters take a big drop. I think he gets worn out from his defensive effort combined with his generally poor shooting. Poor 4th quarter shooting is tough.
Posted on 6/27/17 at 2:43 pm to cgrand
that is a fair point. and i do think staggering is the best bet.
i guess my thinking would be:
1) getting the schemes on offense and defense you want with both on the court first.
2) then, run those schemes, with minor tweaks, with bench units featuring only 1 of the duo.
so maybe that is running more PnR out of their "normal" sets when Davis is the lone big. or featuring more Cousins post ups for his solo stints (or whatever the ideal would be).
we might agree on this, but perhaps i'm just not tracking you here, but there has to be a core philosophy/set of principles on both offense and defense for all 48 minutes.
so i guess the stumbling block re: this discussion for me is if you're signing a name PG used to being the guy with the ball dictating offense, will he be happy having maybe 15 minutes a night where he plays that role? as a team, how much do you want to spend for a guy in that role?
those are a couple reasons im down on Holiday- i dont think he necessarily wants to play this new role and i dont want to see the team spend $25M+ annually for him in this role either
i guess my thinking would be:
1) getting the schemes on offense and defense you want with both on the court first.
2) then, run those schemes, with minor tweaks, with bench units featuring only 1 of the duo.
so maybe that is running more PnR out of their "normal" sets when Davis is the lone big. or featuring more Cousins post ups for his solo stints (or whatever the ideal would be).
we might agree on this, but perhaps i'm just not tracking you here, but there has to be a core philosophy/set of principles on both offense and defense for all 48 minutes.
so i guess the stumbling block re: this discussion for me is if you're signing a name PG used to being the guy with the ball dictating offense, will he be happy having maybe 15 minutes a night where he plays that role? as a team, how much do you want to spend for a guy in that role?
those are a couple reasons im down on Holiday- i dont think he necessarily wants to play this new role and i dont want to see the team spend $25M+ annually for him in this role either
Posted on 6/27/17 at 2:44 pm to NOFOX
the Pels are just in a tough spot right now with Cousins FA and Davis coming down the line. it's a very tough needle to thread this summer
Posted on 6/27/17 at 3:09 pm to corndeaux
quote:
those are a couple reasons im down on Holiday- i dont think he necessarily wants to play this new role and i dont want to see the team spend $25M+ annually for him in this role either
100% in agreement, though i doubt holiday would make this decision based on "role". in any event, just say no to holiday and $25MM+
Posted on 6/27/17 at 3:16 pm to cgrand
quote:
just say no to holiday and $25MM+
Here's a scary scenario. They do the Holiday brothers package deal but use the Room exception on Justin meaning $3 million of his salary is padded into Jrue's number. I could see them doing this too because it could help with team building for this season.
Holiday/Crawford/Cook
FA/Moore
Hill/Holiday
AD/Cunningham
Cousins/Scrub/Diallo
This post was edited on 6/27/17 at 3:17 pm
Posted on 6/27/17 at 3:18 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
Here's a scary scenario. They do the Holiday brothers package deal but use the Room exception on Justin meaning $3 million of his salary is padded into Jrue's number. I could see them doing this too because it could help with team building for this season.
Holiday/Crawford/Cook
FA/Moore
Hill/Holiday
AD/Cunningham
Cousins/Scrub/Diallo
Would they even have any money to get a FA SG after that?
Posted on 6/27/17 at 3:32 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:
Would they even have any money to get a FA SG after that?
I was looking at it with a $101 million cap, not the new $99 million projection, so you won't be able to keep Cunningham. If you stretch Asik, dump Ajinca/QPon, renounce Cook/Toupane/Cunningham you'd have $12.4 million in cap space.
This post was edited on 6/27/17 at 3:33 pm
Posted on 6/27/17 at 3:34 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
If you stretch Asik, dump Ajinca/QPon, renounce Cook/Toupane/Cunningham you'd have $12.4 million in cap space.
I'd kind of like to keep Cook if possible, personally.
Posted on 6/27/17 at 3:38 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
Holiday/Crawford/Cook
FA/Moore
Hill/Holiday
AD/Cunningham
Cousins/Scrub/Diallo
thats enough internet for me today
Posted on 6/27/17 at 3:38 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:
I'd kind of like to keep Cook if possible, personally.
You bring him back on a minimum. Pels have done this with minimum players many times in the past and Cook would probably be cool with it if he liked his potential role on the team.
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