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re: The Official Trade Proposal Thread
Posted on 6/9/24 at 10:46 am to Pels247
Posted on 6/9/24 at 10:46 am to Pels247
If we can't get a legit star level upgrade out of an Ingram trade, we at least should be trying to get someone with a similar talent level that fits better. I think Murray is exactly that, and that fit would upgrade the starting unit significantly IMO as well as solve last year's biggest weakness, not having a high enough level of ball handling on the floor when defenses applied pressure.
The changes I would expect to the starting lineup have to be viewed both defensively and offensively, because different players are taking different roles.
Defensively
Murray > CJ
Herb = Herb
Trey is about the same to a little better than BI
Zion = Zion
Center is still a question mark but expected to be better defensively
Offensively
Murray > BI Again, they both were basically 21/5/5 guys last year, the difference is Murray has already adjusted to being #2 as well as taking more 3s, plus the already mentioned better handle for when the defense applies pressure.
Herb = Herb
Trey ~ CJ CJ certainly is a better overall player than 3rd year Trey, but with Murray being an improvement over BI, Trey should be able to cover most of what we get from CJ when the team is healthy and he's playing off ball.
Zion = Zion
Center? < JV Likely an offensive downgrade, but all we really need is a vertical spacer that can catch and score from the dunker's spot.
quote:
I think an Ingram-Murray straight up swap doesn’t really help much and might actually hurt us more.
The changes I would expect to the starting lineup have to be viewed both defensively and offensively, because different players are taking different roles.
Defensively
Murray > CJ
Herb = Herb
Trey is about the same to a little better than BI
Zion = Zion
Center is still a question mark but expected to be better defensively
Offensively
Murray > BI Again, they both were basically 21/5/5 guys last year, the difference is Murray has already adjusted to being #2 as well as taking more 3s, plus the already mentioned better handle for when the defense applies pressure.
Herb = Herb
Trey ~ CJ CJ certainly is a better overall player than 3rd year Trey, but with Murray being an improvement over BI, Trey should be able to cover most of what we get from CJ when the team is healthy and he's playing off ball.
Zion = Zion
Center? < JV Likely an offensive downgrade, but all we really need is a vertical spacer that can catch and score from the dunker's spot.
This post was edited on 6/9/24 at 10:55 am
0
Posted on 6/9/24 at 11:26 am to Baron
Well it depends... He stopped playing defense with the spurs when he started to prioritize his offense. It's been years since he actually played up to his abilities on that end of the floor. Are we asking him to change his game? Or are we just going to hope that he'll buy in? It's not as simple as it looks and we won't know until he's on the roster with a sample size to actually see it.
Posted on 6/9/24 at 11:30 am to supe12sta12z
quote:
Well it depends... He stopped playing defense with the spurs when he started to prioritize his offense. It's been years since he actually played up to his abilities on that end of the floor. Are we asking him to change his game? Or are we just going to hope that he'll buy in? It's not as simple as it looks and we won't know until he's on the roster with a sample size to actually see it.
I think he is still a good defender. ATL's season was a disaster almost from the start, I think his effort dropped off when it was clear their season was going nowhere. Most guys arent going to be giving 100% effort on D for a shite team, it is what it is.
Posted on 6/9/24 at 11:55 am to Balsamic_duck
ATL was OK at defense when Trae was out.
I think a legit secondary role + having all the help D around him will get his D back to well above average. Elite? Probably not, but that's OK because we want his offensive jump, too (there is only so much energy to go around. This same thing happened with Halliburton).
I've been on the Murray bandwagon since his SA days. I think the best part is his fit, in that he can play small next to Herb or big next to CJ. Gives us lots of lineup flexibility.
Pretty much all of these BI trades assumes (hopes for?) a big jump in offensive production from Trey. Murray giving up a little on offense for (1) team ball and (2) more energy on D would really make us elite. Trey making up that offensive decrease is just the mozzarella on top.
If we netted Allen and Murray while not dealing Herb, best D in the league is clearly in our sights. With Zion/Murray/Trey we would always have a good offense (even if that net would mean no more CJ. If we could keep him, we're LE-git on both sides of the ball and just need to fill out depth).
I think a legit secondary role + having all the help D around him will get his D back to well above average. Elite? Probably not, but that's OK because we want his offensive jump, too (there is only so much energy to go around. This same thing happened with Halliburton).
I've been on the Murray bandwagon since his SA days. I think the best part is his fit, in that he can play small next to Herb or big next to CJ. Gives us lots of lineup flexibility.
Pretty much all of these BI trades assumes (hopes for?) a big jump in offensive production from Trey. Murray giving up a little on offense for (1) team ball and (2) more energy on D would really make us elite. Trey making up that offensive decrease is just the mozzarella on top.
If we netted Allen and Murray while not dealing Herb, best D in the league is clearly in our sights. With Zion/Murray/Trey we would always have a good offense (even if that net would mean no more CJ. If we could keep him, we're LE-git on both sides of the ball and just need to fill out depth).
Posted on 6/9/24 at 12:18 pm to SlowFlowPro
What about this one?
Spurs: Garland
Hawks: Keldon Johnson, Dyson
Cavs: Ingram, picks from Spurs
Pels: Murray, Allen
The latest rumors are Garland is Spurs preferred target at PG. This also leaves us Nance and his 12 million expiring to make further deal(s)
Spurs: Garland
Hawks: Keldon Johnson, Dyson
Cavs: Ingram, picks from Spurs
Pels: Murray, Allen
The latest rumors are Garland is Spurs preferred target at PG. This also leaves us Nance and his 12 million expiring to make further deal(s)
This post was edited on 6/9/24 at 12:19 pm
Posted on 6/9/24 at 12:19 pm to Soggymoss
quote:
Hawks: Keldon Johnson, Dyson
Hawks just got majorly screwed.
Posted on 6/9/24 at 12:21 pm to Pels_Yaz
quote:
Hawks just got majorly screwed.
Yes, unless there are a lot of 1sts (Which can be added by SA and NO)
Posted on 6/9/24 at 12:23 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Yes, unless there are a lot of 1sts (Which can be added by SA and NO)
You’re also making those teams more competitive with the trade- decreasing the firsts value. Hawks will want better young pieces in the trade.
Posted on 6/9/24 at 12:26 pm to Pels_Yaz
I just don’t see Atlanta getting much of anything offered for Murray, they couldn’t get more than a 1st rounder and salary filler offered at the deadline, and I suspect that’s about all they will get now. Keldon is a decent young wing, combined with Dyson i think it would be fair value. If anything they may need to receive a couple 2nds, but that’s about all i would add.
I just think Murray’s value is highly overrated/exaggerated when we already have evidence of what NBA teams think about it.
I just think Murray’s value is highly overrated/exaggerated when we already have evidence of what NBA teams think about it.
This post was edited on 6/9/24 at 12:31 pm
Posted on 6/9/24 at 12:31 pm to Soggymoss
quote:
just don’t see Atlanta getting much of anything offered for Murray, they couldn’t get more than a 1st rounder and salary filler offered at the deadline, and I suspect that’s about all they will get now. Keldon is a decent young wing, combined with Dyson i think it would be fair value. If anything they may need to receive a couple 2nds, but that’s about all i would add. I just think Murray is highly overrated
Murray has better or equal stats to BI. Keldon has been absolute garbage and Dyson at this stage is a defensive role player. You’re wrong about Murray- its been stated teams, including Pels, prefer him to Trae. So theres definitely a market for him. Hawks are not just giving him away man- lets be a little realistic.
Also you cant just apply a players value from trade deadline to now- things change. The market changes- look at BIs value since then.
This post was edited on 6/9/24 at 12:33 pm
Posted on 6/9/24 at 12:39 pm to Pels_Yaz
quote:
You’re wrong about Murray- its been stated teams, including Pels, prefer him to Trae
It’s also been stated the reason they prefer Murray over Trae is due to acquisition cost and his contract, not his play. There were also multiple teams interested in him at the deadline, including Pels then too, and look at the offers they got then.
quote:
Also you cant just apply a players value from trade deadline to now- things change. The market changes- look at BIs value since then.
Murray did nothing to increase his value and we already know what kind of offers Atlanta was getting for him then. Those offers won’t increase. On the other hand we have never heard of any official offers for Ingram and who has been offered, so until that happens we can only speculate what we can get for Ingram. Rumors were last year Pels could have gotten the 3rd or 4th pick from either Hornets or Blazers for Ingram. There’s absolutely ZERO chance anyone would give that up for Murray, so we do have some sort of baseline to go off of.
I don’t see Ingram’s value as being deflated, GM’s are not as emotional as fans, they all know Ingram probably should not have played in the playoffs and they won’t hold that against him.
This post was edited on 6/9/24 at 12:41 pm
Posted on 6/9/24 at 12:49 pm to Soggymoss
quote:
It’s also been stated the reason they prefer Murray over Trae is due to acquisition cost and his contract, not his play.
That increases Murrays value- it doesn’t decrease it. And they never stated “it wasn’t because of his play.” You just made that up dude- come on.
quote:
Murray did nothing to increase his value and we already know what kind of offers Atlanta was getting for him then. Those offers won’t increase.
He had a very good season in Atlanta and was one if the best clutch players in the league. You can’t just state “offers wont increase” without any logical backing. You’re strictly basing ever off the trade deadline. You can’t keep doing that.
quote:
On the other hand we have never heard of any official offers for Ingram and who has been offered, so until that happens we can only speculate what we can get for Ingram. Rumors were last year Pels could have gotten the 3rd or 4th pick from either Hornets or Blazers for Ingram. There’s absolutely ZERO chance anyone would give that up for Murray, so we do have some sort of baseline to go off of. I don’t see Ingram’s value as being deflated, GM’s are not as emotional as fans, they all know Ingram probably should not have played in the playoffs and they won’t hold that against him.
GMs also see reality. BI has lost value. There are people who would argue Murray with his contract is a much better asset than BI.
You’re using rumors from last year and the trade deadline as baselines- you can’t do that. In any market the value of an asset changes- especially depending on how a player plays. You’re just completely ignoring that factor. BIs value is not remotely the same from last year nor is even Dejounte from the trade deadline.
Lol why do people think BI shouldn’t have played in playoffs when the guy played regular season games before then- we got to stop using this “injury” excuse for his play. I don’t even think BI was using this as an excuse but us fans are doing this now.
This post was edited on 6/9/24 at 12:51 pm
Posted on 6/9/24 at 1:07 pm to Pels_Yaz
How clutch can a guy be and miss the playoffs in the East?
Posted on 6/9/24 at 1:09 pm to Jester
quote:
How clutch can a guy be and miss the playoffs in the East?
He was one of the clutch players in the regular season. How clutch were any of our players in the regular season? Unless you forgot every one of our players, including our stars, were disasters in the clutch this season.
This post was edited on 6/9/24 at 1:10 pm
Posted on 6/9/24 at 1:31 pm to Pels_Yaz
quote:
He was one of the clutch players in the regular season. How clutch were any of our players in the regular season? Unless you forgot every one of our players, including our stars, were disasters in the clutch this season.
Lulz
Murray in the clutch = 38.8% shooting
Ingram in the clutch = 42.9% shooting
Zion in the clutch = 45.7% shooting
CJ in the clutch = 47.8% shooting
Who was clutch? Besides being represented by Klutch, thats about the only clutch Murray has
Posted on 6/9/24 at 1:46 pm to Soggymoss
quote:
Lulz Murray in the clutch = 38.8% shooting Ingram in the clutch = 42.9% shooting Zion in the clutch = 45.7% shooting CJ in the clutch = 47.8% shooting
Are we really doing this?
How did the pels shooting performance help us become the worst clutch team in the league??
Dejounte at one point was a candidate for clutch player of the year and made several game winning shots this year. If you forgot I can post the highlights for you- or just google them.
But yeah lets talk about shooting percentages while one player is making game winning shots and the other three make up for probably the worst clutch team in the league.
Lulz.
Posted on 6/9/24 at 1:55 pm to Pels_Yaz
quote:
How did the pels shooting performance help us become the worst clutch team in the league??
First, Pels weren’t the worst clutch team in the league.
Second, Pels had a better net rating in the clutch than Atlanta -12.1 to -12.8.
Now, I will say Atlanta does have one major clutch time advantage over Pels, and that’s having a coach that actually draws up a play.
Oh, an Trae Young, an actual clutch player
This post was edited on 6/9/24 at 2:00 pm
Posted on 6/9/24 at 2:03 pm to Soggymoss
quote:
Now, I will say Atlanta does have one major clutch time advantage over Pels, and that’s having a coach that actually draws up a play.
Well if they weren’t the worst- they were near the bottom and had to be one of the worst 4th quarter teams in the league.
The Hawks also had a player that made game winning shots (Dejounte). Honestly the only game winning shot I remember from last season was Zion against Spurs.
I agree with you Snyder is a better coach than Willie but our players need to be much better as well.
By the way- in all your trade scenarios you want Murray but you don’t think hes clutch and his value is lower than BI? Just confirming that?
This post was edited on 6/9/24 at 2:05 pm
Posted on 6/9/24 at 2:13 pm to Pels_Yaz
quote:
By the way- in all your trade scenarios you want Murray but you don’t think hes clutch and his value is lower than BI? Just confirming that?
I personally don’t want Murray, he would be the bottom of the list on PG’s I would want, but trying to be realistic I think he will end up being the target if Atlanta refuses to trade Trae.
And yes, his value is lower than BI, by a good bit, at least a first rounder+
quote:
Well if they weren’t the worst- they were near the bottom and had to be one of the worst 4th quarter teams in the league.
So was Atlanta…
quote:
The Hawks also had a player that made game winning shots (Dejounte)
Ingram has hit multiple game winners in a season also, i remember the one against Utah and against Timberwolves.
This post was edited on 6/9/24 at 2:15 pm
Posted on 6/9/24 at 2:24 pm to Soggymoss
quote:
And yes, his value is lower than BI, by a good bit, at least a first rounder+
There is no reason to think this is the value for them. Again, you’re overvaluing BI and undervaluing Murray. Look at their stats and career- they’re basically the same player. And again with BI contract situation- Murray might be the better asset.
quote:
Ingram has hit multiple game winners in a season also, i remember the one against Utah and against Timberwolves.
I was talking this past season. You’re pulling game winners from a year or 2 years ago.
This is what I mean you’re inflating BIs value by pulling stuff he did over a year ago but completely ignoring his recent play and thinking GMs will do the same. I think BI has solid value but I also think his recent performance won’t be ignored- it has nothing to do with being emotional; his value is predicated on everything not just past performances but also current performances and contract situations.
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