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re: Pelicans Trade Rumors and Chatter
Posted on 1/21/24 at 12:34 pm to Pels_Yaz
Posted on 1/21/24 at 12:34 pm to Pels_Yaz
quote:
If you think he’s elite and better than Herb on defense- then you think Dyson belongs on the NBA all defense first team over Herb this season?
Dyson isn't going to qualify for all nba defense due to minutes. He can't stay on the court long enough for stuff like that until his offensive game improves.
And again, this isn't a "think" thing. His numbers are right there with herbs defensively. I've provided stats for that, you're providing opinion. Find stats to back up your argument.
quote:
Dude you change your arguments- you literally just said we fixed lonzo shot in reference to fixing Daniels. Yeah he has great form, but he hasn’t improved his shot making. To me makinh shots and showing improvement in that area- makes it salvageable. He hasnt done that.
I'm not changing arguments. I said we fixed lonzos shot and Dyson has good form. Why is it so hard for you to think that Dysons shot can't be fixed? At 20 years old you've got time as an NBA to improve that. Drastically even.
This post was edited on 1/21/24 at 12:35 pm
1
Posted on 1/21/24 at 12:46 pm to whatiknowsofar
quote:
Dyson isn't going to qualify for all nba defense due to minutes. He can't stay on the court long enough for stuff like that until his offensive game improves. And again, this isn't a "think" thing. His numbers are right there with herbs defensively. I've provided stats for that, you're providing opinion. Find stats to back up your argument.
Ok so just confirming you think Dyson is better defender than Herb? And the only reason hes not making an all defensive team over Herb is due to his minutes? Is this what you’re stating? I’m just trying to confirm.
I don’t need stats to confirm what majority of fans and even NBA personnel will say is that Herb is the better all around defender but sure you have stats on minimized minutes showing Dyson is better. For you that data is enough to confirm Dyson is better defender than Herb.
quote:
I'm not changing arguments. I said we fixed lonzos shot and Dyson has good form. Why is it so hard for you to think that Dysons shot can't be fixed? At 20 years old you've got time as an NBA to improve that. Drastically even.
There are plenty of players in the league who were 20 with bad shooting percentages- who are out of the league because they couldn’t improve their shots. When you’re projecting a young player you can’t just assume he’s going to improve. There are plenty if cases where young players that DID NOT improve their shot.
Posted on 1/21/24 at 1:01 pm to Pels_Yaz
quote:
Ok so just confirming you think Dyson is better defender than Herb?
They are different kind of defenders. Dyson is a lockdown, 1 on 1 defender that has elite anticipation like Jrue did. While Herb is no slouch individually, his strength is reading the play, that's why he has so many highlights where he shuts down multiple opposing players on the same play. If the task is "stop this player from scoring" I'd pick Dyson. If the task is "stop the team from scoring" I'd pick Herb.
Combine those 2 skills together and you have some high level defense on the floor at the same time. I can't believe how people are pitting these 2 against each other. If you're having to pick between the 2 the question isn't who would you rather get up, but what are we getting back and is that worth either?
I'm still unconvinced Allen is the game changer many think. I think the Pels need either a unicorn or a committee. Allen is too expensive for a committee and not a unicorn.
Posted on 1/21/24 at 1:12 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
They are different kind of defenders. Dyson is a lockdown, 1 on 1 defender that has elite anticipation like Jrue did. While Herb is no slouch individually, his strength is reading the play, that's why he has so many highlights where he shuts down multiple opposing players on the same play. If the task is "stop this player from scoring" I'd pick Dyson. If the task is "stop the team from scoring" I'd pick Herb. Combine those 2 skills together and you have some high level defense on the floor at the same time. I can't believe how people are pitting these 2 against each other. If you're having to pick between the 2 the question isn't who would you rather get up, but what are we getting back and is that worth either? I'm still unconvinced Allen is the game changer many think. I think the Pels need either a unicorn or a committee. Allen is too expensive for a committee and not a unicorn.
These are great points. I never brought this comparison up. I think previous poster wanted to show how good of a defender Dyson was so he stated hes on Herbs level. I would state where I disagree though is I would still pick Herb to stop a player from scoring. I also agree their combo of defense has helped us this season.
I think Allen is a great player even if we lose Dyson and Jv. I wouldn’t trade Herb though. Allen this season is scoring and rebounding at a great rate- hes also the athletic versatile big on defense we’re missing. The only thing I would say is nit sure how that starting lineup would work with JA over JV. I think you would need to switch out Herb for Trey.
Posted on 1/21/24 at 1:21 pm to Pels_Yaz
quote:
Ok so just confirming you think Dyson is better defender than Herb? And the only reason hes not making an all defensive team over Herb is due to his minutes? Is this what you’re stating? I’m just trying to confirm.
I'm obviously a BIG fan of Herb & think he's a bit better on the defensive end than DD...but it's no big deal and BOTH are VERY good defensive players. We desperately need DD to come around on offense...he's just too valuable on D...to eventually NOT have him out there full time.
Sounds odd, but what bothers me MOST on DD's offense is his FT%...NO way he shouldn't be improving in that area but he shot 26-40 65% his first yr. & now 31-48 64.6% this year. I hate to say it...but this is usually a lack of individual "work" on his own...or...some kind of, for lack of better words...a mental problem. It's really hard for a guy like DD to NOT improve on his FTs...if he puts in the work.
Out on the court...he's just a mess offensively. Seems awfully "stiff" (whatever that means) and has absolutely NO confidence. I still think you just gotta throw him out there "in the deep end"...and let him work his way through it. Shoot...go to the hoop...then shoot some more & go to the hoop some more.
Herb was a bit of an offensive "mess" himself...his first 2 yrs...other than FTs...and has suddenly made a fantastic leap in EVERY important offensive category I can think of...this year. JMO: Herb is BY FAR...our most improved player this year...at least, so far. So...bottom line...DON'T GIVE UP ON DD !!
This post was edited on 1/21/24 at 1:25 pm
Posted on 1/21/24 at 1:47 pm to Dinky Mulberry
quote:
I'm obviously a BIG fan of Herb & think he's a bit better on the defensive end than DD...but it's no big deal and BOTH are VERY good defensive players. We desperately need DD to come around on offense...he's just too valuable on D...to eventually NOT have him out there full time.
Agreed. I don’t think anyone disagrees with how good Dyson’s defense is. But I think reasonable minds can differ on how much projected offensive improvement he can make moving forward.
I think whats put me more on the negative on him improving offensively is this season. The FTs and 3pt shooting are definite concerns. But the stiffness and more importantly lack of confidence. I agree Herb was a mess but even in his rookie year he did things like cutting really well or playing in transition that instilled some confidence. Dyson is in his second year and he still has confidence issues offensively. The lack of aggression on offense, like you mentioned stiffness, and then missing point blank shots. Its becoming a concern. I don’t see a meaningful enough progression on offense in his second year to persuade me that he will improve. I would love it if he proves me wrong but I just don’t see it offensively.
Posted on 1/21/24 at 1:51 pm to Pels_Yaz
quote:
I think whats put me more on the negative on him improving offensively is this season. The FTs and 3pt shooting are definite concerns. But the stiffness and more importantly lack of confidence. I agree Herb was a mess but even in his rookie year he did things like cutting really well or playing in transition that instilled some confidence. Dyson is in his second year and he still has confidence issues offensively. The lack of aggression on offense, like you mentioned stiffness, and then missing point blank shots. Its becoming a concern. I don’t see a meaningful enough progression on offense in his second year to persuade me that he will improve. I would love it if he proves me wrong but I just don’t see it offensively.
I agree with a lot of what you’re saying, but just to play devil’s advocate a bit, Herb was 4 years older in his sophomore season than Dyson is now
Posted on 1/21/24 at 1:55 pm to Terrific Tales
quote:
Herb was 4 years older in his sophomore season than Dyson is now
Thats a good point. Now my question to you is do you think the pelicans will wait couple of years for Dyson to potentially show signs of becoming maybe a Herb Jones type player offensively? I just don’t think this franchise will have that patience. Especially when you have other players like Trey and Hawkins clamoring for minutes.
Posted on 1/21/24 at 1:59 pm to Pels_Yaz
quote:
Thats a good point. Now my question to you is do you think the pelicans will wait couple of years for Dyson to potentially show signs of becoming maybe a Herb Jones type player offensively? I just don’t think this franchise will have that patience. Especially when you have other players like Trey and Hawkins clamoring for minutes.
Depends on how they’re approaching the roster for the next few years. If you’re keeping BI, I think you move off Dyson and a few others to try to get some win now players.
If you’re moving off BI, I think you free up that SF position for Trey to start, get a true PG to start next to CJ, move Herb to the bench, and then you definitely keep Dyson. Maybe you make a center trade as well in that scenario
Depends on if we think we’re contenders next year with one trade and BI and Z still on the team or if we’re going to build around the core of Dyson, Herb, Trey, Zion, Hawkins, which is kind of what I think we should do
Posted on 1/21/24 at 2:02 pm to Terrific Tales
quote:
Depends on if we think we’re contenders next year with one trade and BI and Z still on the team or if we’re going to build around the core of Dyson, Herb, Trey, Zion, Hawkins, which is kind of what I think we should do
This sounds interesting and I’m not at all against it. But this team basically has made BI the face of this franchise- I would be shocked if Griffin traded him and not give him the extension. For better or for worse, I think Griffin is tied to BI succeeding with us. I also think its the wrong decision.
Posted on 1/21/24 at 2:12 pm to Pels_Yaz
quote:
This sounds interesting and I’m not at all against it. But this team basically has made BI the face of this franchise- I would be shocked if Griffin traded him and not give him the extension. For better or for worse, I think Griffin is tied to BI succeeding with us. I also think it’s the wrong decision.
We will see. We’re in a different position now with roster depth than we ever have been before
I mentioned it in the other thread, but my dream trade of people I think are actually available would be a trade for Garland and Allen from Cleveland for BI + Val + something else. In the past I’ve kind of been anti Jarrett Allen because I don’t like the idea of a non spacing big next to Zion, but having Garland alleviates a lot of that issue imo because you essentially have 3 40% 3pt shooters on 6+ attempts per game starting next to him
Starting lineup:
Garland
CJ
Trey
Zion
Allen
I honestly think that makes us so gross
We’ll see though because Allen’s value these last few weeks might have gotten too high for it to work.
Posted on 1/21/24 at 2:16 pm to Terrific Tales
quote:
We’ll see though because Allen’s value these last few weeks might have gotten too high for it to work.
Time to cash in those picks man. We don’t need more rookies on this team. Griffin needs to unlock that treasure chest and go for it.
Posted on 1/21/24 at 2:20 pm to Pels_Yaz
quote:
Ok so just confirming you think Dyson is better defender than Herb? And the only reason hes not making an all defensive team over Herb is due to his minutes? Is this what you’re stating? I’m just trying to confirm.
Again, no. I'm saying he's in the conversation of being on Herbs level, and can be even better given their age difference. Which he absolutely is. He had starter minutes when cj was out and shut down several guards to start the year. Those weren't minimized minutes then.
Which defeats your "solid to good defender" argument of Dyson. He's an elite defender. There's not a number out there that supports him being "solid to good". He's elite on ball. And most on this board will easily agree he's better at guarding 1s and 2s than Herb.
quote:
don’t need stats to confirm what majority of fans and even NBA personnel will say is that Herb is the better all around defender but sure you have stats on minimized minutes showing Dyson is better. For you that data is enough to confirm Dyson is better defender than Herb.
Yeah you don't need stats because they prove you wrong. And you're twisting my words to make you seem like you're right. Which you aren't. Again. I have never said Dyson IS better than Herb on defense this entire time. I'm saying he's in the conversation because I do think Dyson is better on ball. And there's games plural that support that.
quote:
There are plenty of players in the league who were 20 with bad shooting percentages- who are out of the league because they couldn’t improve their shots. When you’re projecting a young player you can’t just assume he’s going to improve
You mean like how you can't just presume he will never improve? Do you really think Dyson has no chance of improving offensively? At 20 years old? Really?
Posted on 1/21/24 at 2:25 pm to Pels_Yaz
quote:
Time to cash in those picks man. We don’t need more rookies on this team. Griffin needs to unlock that treasure chest and go for it.
It would be fun. If we threw in a pick or 2 and ended up with:
Garland/Dyson
CJ/Hawkins
Trey/Herb
Zion
Allen/Larry
Then you have Naji/Jose/Ryan/Matkovic/Zeller to fit where needed or as trade pieces for a final piece. That’s a pretty fricking fire team imo and it sets us up way better for the future
This post was edited on 1/21/24 at 2:30 pm
Posted on 1/21/24 at 3:06 pm to Terrific Tales
Man no lie I would love that lineup
Posted on 1/21/24 at 3:11 pm to Jnola
quote:
Man no lie I would love that lineup
We’ve seen Zion with a true PG. That looked pretty good
We’ve seen Zion with 3pt shooting. That looks pretty good too
Let’s give him both
This post was edited on 1/21/24 at 3:21 pm
Posted on 1/21/24 at 3:53 pm to whatiknowsofar
I can’t keep doing this lol.
You think Dyson is elite on defense and will improve on offense due to his young age.
I think Dyson is very good on defense with ability to become elite on defense but I don’t foresee him making any substantial offensive improvements despite his young age.
We won’t agree and thats ok. Lets move on.
You think Dyson is elite on defense and will improve on offense due to his young age.
I think Dyson is very good on defense with ability to become elite on defense but I don’t foresee him making any substantial offensive improvements despite his young age.
We won’t agree and thats ok. Lets move on.
Posted on 1/21/24 at 3:58 pm to Pels_Yaz
quote:
I think Dyson is very good on defense with ability to become elite on defense but I don’t foresee him making any substantial offensive improvements despite his young age.
Whether Dyson will improve on offense is an argument, whether he’s elite on defense is not. Dyson is an elite defender and pretty much every metric shows it
Posted on 1/21/24 at 4:08 pm to Terrific Tales
quote:
Dyson is an elite defender and pretty much every metric shows it
I guess I would argue the consistency of when I see it. There are games where I feel hes not as aggressive. For instance the lack of defensive aggression I saw in games against the Suns or Mavs concerned me. And you’re not wrong overall maybe every metric does show that. But when you’re watching games and seeing Kyrie, Hardway jr and Booker not just scoring but scoring near 40 to 50 points and lot of those being scored on Dyson- I question the elite defender theory.
Posted on 1/21/24 at 4:17 pm to Pels_Yaz
In the league as it currently is, elite offense will always beat elite defense.
And I mean Kyrie was definitely cooking people but Hardaway was just on fire from 3 not sure what else Dyson could have done in that matchup
And I mean Kyrie was definitely cooking people but Hardaway was just on fire from 3 not sure what else Dyson could have done in that matchup
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