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re: Offseason player trade rumors thread
Posted on 7/2/21 at 3:32 pm to GynoSandberg
Posted on 7/2/21 at 3:32 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
He shot 36% or above from 3P in 49% of his games the last two seasons. Over 30% in 62% of them. Would have to cross reference that with other similarly regarded shooters, but my educated guess is that those numbers fall close to players of similar ilk
Joe Harris shot 36% or above in 71% of his games the last 2 years.
Duncan Robinson shot 36% or above in 66% of his games the last 2 years.
Malcolm Brogdon shot 36% or above in 51% of his games the last 2 years.
But Lonzo deserves equal money as them
He's no where near the elite shooters Harris or Duncan are, and he's no where near the defender or the scorer Brogdon is.
and i say all that and still say that Lonzo is a good 3 point shooter, and can be a good asset on the right team.
Brandon Ingram shot 36% or better in 56% of his games the last 2 years.
Bryn Forbes has taken 722 3's the last 2 years, Lonzo at 850. Forbes is hitting them at 42%, Lonzo 38%.
Bryn shot 36% or better in 53% of his games the last 2 years. He just signed a 2/$4.8M contract.
This post was edited on 7/2/21 at 3:42 pm
1
Posted on 7/2/21 at 3:44 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
Only the original team can offer 5 years.
I’m well aware, did he specify that he was referring to a different team giving him the contract?
Posted on 7/2/21 at 3:49 pm to Epic Cajun
He implied it by saying it was just under the max and saying this was a discussion of what Lonzo could get. That sounds like a broader market discussion, not the Pels offering 5/$100. But I suppose that’s possible too.
Posted on 7/2/21 at 3:55 pm to Epic Cajun
quote:
I’m well aware, did he specify that he was referring to a different team giving him the contract?
I don't think anyone in the media thinks we are resigning Lonzo.
4/$100, which i think is just a media guy being ridiculous, but it's really not that far off if they expect him to get more than the Brogdon/VanVleet contract.
Posted on 7/2/21 at 3:55 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:He's a completely different player than all of these guys, and in a different role. Harrison and Robinson are basically only shooters. Brogdon is in a more similar role, but at the time of signing his last contract he was 27 years old, basically a finished product. Lonzo is going to get paid partially for his play (shooting, transition facilitation, and defensive versatility), and partially for his potential (he's only 23 years old).
Joe Harris shot 36% or above in 71% of his games the last 2 years.
Duncan Robinson shot 36% or above in 66% of his games the last 2 years.
Malcolm Brogdon shot 36% or above in 51% of his games the last 2 years.
But Lonzo deserves equal money as them
What do you think a fair contract value for Lonzo is?
Posted on 7/2/21 at 4:00 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:Is absurd.
4/$100
I think ~77-82 mil over 4 years (starting at either 18 or 19 mil with either 5% or 8% raises) is more in line with what he should get.
Posted on 7/2/21 at 4:01 pm to TigerinATL
quote:I wasn't trying to be a dick, I just didn't think that reasonable people would be discussing paying Lonzo 4/100m.
He implied it by saying it was just under the max and saying this was a discussion of what Lonzo could get. That sounds like a broader market discussion, not the Pels offering 5/$100. But I suppose that’s possible too.
Posted on 7/2/21 at 4:15 pm to Epic Cajun
quote:
He's a completely different player than all of these guys
I would agree. He's one dimensional and not elite at his one dimension.
quote:
Harrison and Robinson are basically only shooters.
I've shown the stats before of what Robinson shoots when he's covered and wide open, and it's elite, and he shoots off screens. He creates space running around off ball, Lonzo can't do that.
Lonzo is basically only a shooter, but you can also say he's only a catch and shoot shooter.
quote:
Brogdon is in a more similar role,
Somewhat, but he can actually play PG in the halfcourt, and he's an elite defender, both much better at than Lonzo. Plus Brogdon isn't afraid of taking shots in the clutch, and actually creating on his own.
quote:
Lonzo is going to get paid partially for his play (shooting, transition facilitation, and defensive versatility), and partially for his potential (he's only 23 years old).
I agree
I just think that his reputation exceeds his performance, and he's a role player in the NBA, so his age and potential doesn't have this high ceiling after we've seen him for 4 years. He can make minor adjustments to his game. He's not making some meteoric rise.
quote:
What do you think a fair contract value for Lonzo is?
I just showed you Bryn Forbes has taken almost as many 3's as him the last two years and hits them at a higher and more consistent rate. If Lonzo can't be a half court facilitator, and is just relegated to role playing shooter, why would you pay him what elite shooters get, or what defensive playmakers like Brogdon/VanVleet make? 4/$75 should be his max, and i'd be ok with 4/$65.
I just don't buy the age argument with him. He's been in the league for 4 years. he's not going to make a huge jump right now. Of course he can get better, but he's not going to become good enough to be a legit 3rd best player on a playoff team.
Posted on 7/2/21 at 4:46 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:I'm surprised you would be OK with that high of a number the way you downplay anything and everything he does. I would be OK with 4/$64 to 4/$72 but think he will get around 4/$80 or maybe a little more. That will put a lot of pressure on Griffin as I think he will try to keep Zo to keep Zion happy. That could get us in trouble if we significantly overpay.
I just showed you Bryn Forbes has taken almost as many 3's as him the last two years and hits them at a higher and more consistent rate. If Lonzo can't be a half court facilitator, and is just relegated to role playing shooter, why would you pay him what elite shooters get, or what defensive playmakers like Brogdon/VanVleet make? 4/$75 should be his max, and i'd be ok with 4/$65.
I just don't buy the age argument with him. He's been in the league for 4 years. he's not going to make a huge jump right now. Of course he can get better, but he's not going to become good enough to be a legit 3rd best player on a playoff team.
This post was edited on 7/2/21 at 4:46 pm
Posted on 7/2/21 at 5:05 pm to NOSHAU
I'm trying to be reasonable here. If you want my complete honest opinion of what he should be making, it's slightly higher than MLE and i wouldn't want him for more than 3 years, but i would imagine most people will find that completely unreasonable of me.
i look at him as the 4th or 5th best player. A guy that can shoot well from 3 while not being able to do much else offensively, and someone that can be a decent secondary defender in the backcourt, but would be abused by elite offensive players (which we saw all year this year). We are all talking about bringing Brogdon in to do what Lonzo can't, so why the hell should he get anywhere near what he makes?
You see tons of role players making that $12-15m/YR range as good but flawed players. That's Lonzo to me. 3/$42 is what i think his true worth is, with maybe a 4th year player option. A contract that allows him to improve and make more sooner b/c he hasn't proven he deserves more than that yet.
That's what i fear, and that's a stupid reason to keep someone. Zion would be happier winning, plain and simple.
i look at him as the 4th or 5th best player. A guy that can shoot well from 3 while not being able to do much else offensively, and someone that can be a decent secondary defender in the backcourt, but would be abused by elite offensive players (which we saw all year this year). We are all talking about bringing Brogdon in to do what Lonzo can't, so why the hell should he get anywhere near what he makes?
You see tons of role players making that $12-15m/YR range as good but flawed players. That's Lonzo to me. 3/$42 is what i think his true worth is, with maybe a 4th year player option. A contract that allows him to improve and make more sooner b/c he hasn't proven he deserves more than that yet.
quote:
That will put a lot of pressure on Griffin as I think he will try to keep Zo to keep Zion happy
That's what i fear, and that's a stupid reason to keep someone. Zion would be happier winning, plain and simple.
This post was edited on 7/2/21 at 5:07 pm
Posted on 7/2/21 at 5:10 pm to TeddyPadillac
The problem with Lonzo is it's not just a friendship, Lonzo weaponizes Zion in a way very few others in the league can with the full court lobs. Zion probably doesn't only want them to keep Lonzo but wonders were all of his easy buckets went.
Posted on 7/2/21 at 5:16 pm to TigerinATL
This is the narrative where people lose me re: Lonzo . How many “full court lobs” are converted over the course of a game , a month , a season ,Sure they are highlight plays when they happen but it’s not a high volume play . If you want to weaponize Zion , go get a guard that can play effectively and is a threat in that P&R.
Posted on 7/2/21 at 5:35 pm to TigerinATL
quote:this is like one time a game. And decreased last year. These full court lobs wont be a thing come playoff time when the game slows down. Y’all really shouldn’t be overvaluing that. Zion doesn’t need Zo to score. We all know this
Lonzo weaponizes Zion in a way very few others in the league can with the full court lobs
I really can’t believe that is used as an argument as why Zo is “valuable”
This post was edited on 7/2/21 at 5:39 pm
Posted on 7/2/21 at 8:02 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
I would have loved to have made the playoffs once the last two years so we could see what Lonzo is capable of. Maybe
Well the bubble last year was pretty close to a playoff atmosphere and we all saw how that played out with him. If we match anything over 15-16 a year Griff is a bigger idiot than I thought.
Even at that salary, I would be hesitant but that’s the cost of his potential….
This post was edited on 7/2/21 at 8:04 pm
Posted on 7/2/21 at 8:03 pm to Macintosh
Sweet straw man
What about the three year run on year over year improvements, age 21 22 23 seasons, in
PER
TS%
3PAr
Win Shares
VORP
OPBM
ORtg
Young player shows marked improvement in numerous cats over a 3 year period, one of the only young players who has actually shown any development since this organization came to the city
Maybe you can tell me the players who check these boxes over the last two seasons
Age 23 or younger
At least 850 3PA
At least 38% on 3PA
At least 5.5 RPG
At least 6.4 APG
This is your one dimensional, half court lob throwing shite stain.
What about the three year run on year over year improvements, age 21 22 23 seasons, in
PER
TS%
3PAr
Win Shares
VORP
OPBM
ORtg
Young player shows marked improvement in numerous cats over a 3 year period, one of the only young players who has actually shown any development since this organization came to the city
Maybe you can tell me the players who check these boxes over the last two seasons
Age 23 or younger
At least 850 3PA
At least 38% on 3PA
At least 5.5 RPG
At least 6.4 APG
This is your one dimensional, half court lob throwing shite stain.
Posted on 7/2/21 at 8:12 pm to GynoSandberg
Bro what are you talking about I was talking to ATL about his Zo lob take.
Go try and force debates with the other guys on here. I’m sure you’ll find a few
I was talking to ATL about his Zo lob take. Go try and force debates with the other guys on here. I’m sure you’ll find a few
Posted on 7/2/21 at 8:25 pm to Macintosh
quote:
Lonzo Ball sucks
This you?
Gonna just settle for the shitty opinionated hit and run take?
Posted on 7/2/21 at 8:33 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:yes it is however you didn’t reply to that specific post. Hence the confusion..
This you?
I stand by that statement. He’s not good. I don’t care about his rebounds that his big men box out others for him to get. He’s not a primary ball handler, Can’t get to the free throw line, Isn’t a good on ball defender, and has the confidence of a 2inch cocked nerd. We saw this year if his 3pt shoot isn’t falling he’s practically useless. But we’ll agree to disagree.
This post was edited on 7/2/21 at 8:34 pm
Posted on 7/2/21 at 8:45 pm to Macintosh
Ty for your reasoning
Posted on 7/2/21 at 9:41 pm to Macintosh
quote:
I was talking to ATL about his Zo lob take.
The only way I want Lonzo back is if they can't trade for a starting caliber guard to put next to NAW. But me bringing up the lobs came about because someone was concerned about keeping Lonzo just because he's friends with Zion. I was pointing out that from Zion's perspective he's more than a friend, he's someone that gets him easy baskets. If they let Lonzo go without bringing in a high caliber replacement, Zion will probably see that as a mistake and maybe as the team being cheap.
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