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re: First take, klay and draymond for AD
Posted on 6/13/18 at 8:32 am to Epic Cajun
Posted on 6/13/18 at 8:32 am to Epic Cajun
quote:
Someone who is better as a second or third option on a team
that's fair. and makes sense. if we are defining it primarily through the offense lens, then Draymond will always fall short.
personally, i just believe there are plenty of guys who can score; almost no one else who can do what he does defensively (truly incredible) and as a creator from his position.
ignoring injury, when/if the Warriors start to slip, i think it will be because he loses a step on defense
quote:
I'm referring to someone who can't be the best player on a successful team
this is the key point- what does "successful" mean here? making the playoffs? being a title contender?
if it's the former, i disagree with you completely because Draymond is certainly that. your Klay/Jrue/Mirotic/Green team is making the playoffs. if it's the latter, you are right. but the catch is that there are maybe 5 guys who fall in that category.
quote:
as there are probably only about 20 or so players who you'd want to start an NBA team with. If there was an open draft of every player in the NBA, I refuse to believe that Draymond Green would be taken 11th overall.
that's a bit of a different question if you can consider age/contract.
i'll pull the most recent SI Top 100 11-20 in descending order, which doesnt take those things into consideration:
Thompson
Lowry
Conley
Lillard
Hayward
Gobert
Towns
Wall
George
Butler
i'd take a couple over Draymond, but that's it. and i would also argue that almost all of these guys are role players- best served as 2nd/3rd players on a legit contender.
but different strokes for different folks
0
Posted on 6/13/18 at 8:36 am to ShamelessPel
quote:
Horford/KAT/Gobert
yes. Horford is a tough call, but Draymond is better
quote:
Give me a big who can actually spread the floor or create havoc with their dribble drives and passing.
asking me if i've ever seen how Draymond racks up assists, then saying this
:dead:
Posted on 6/13/18 at 8:51 am to corndeaux
quote:
asking me if i've ever seen how Draymond racks up assists, then saying this
Yeah there’s the Gulf of Mexico between Lebron and Giannis’ ability to get to the basket and Draymond friggin Green dude.
Seriously how do you expect AD and Draymond to work on offense? AD can’t cut like these guards to spots on the floor. He’s not a spot up shooter. Great, let’s let Draymond Green’s defender sag 6-8 feet off of him and front Davis. What a recipe for success. Find me even a highlight video... a highlight video... of Draymond creating 1v1 in the half court without screens or help. You get your choice of the whole league and you choose a guy with definitive offensive limitations to put next to AD? Ok smart guy. You’re lucky your past post history is so damn good cause your arse is coasting on it right now with some of these takes.
Posted on 6/13/18 at 9:00 am to ShamelessPel
quote:
whole league
i believe i said any frontcourt player i.e. big man. LeBron, Giannis, KD don't qualify there for me. that is certainly debatable in modern NBA. obviously, i would take any of those guys first w/o any restrictions.
is interesting you're now lumping GIannis, whom you have sworn is a big like Davis b/c he can't shoot from range, with perimeter players like LeBron and KD.
quote:
You’re lucky your past post history is so damn good cause your arse is coasting on it right now with some of these takes.
ha. if it's something you agree with, i'm a good poster. if not, i'm coasting.
fair enough
Posted on 6/13/18 at 9:05 am to corndeaux
You've yet to even halfway address how Davis and Green work on offense. Why? Because you know it's a train wreck waiting to happen.
You said FRONTCOURT. I am sure I don't have to explain to you what positions are considered the frontcourt in the NBA.
quote:
is interesting you're now lumping GIannis, whom you have sworn is a big like Davis b/c he can't shoot from range, with perimeter players like LeBron and KD.
You said FRONTCOURT. I am sure I don't have to explain to you what positions are considered the frontcourt in the NBA.
This post was edited on 6/13/18 at 9:07 am
Posted on 6/13/18 at 11:25 am to PenguinPubes
These rumors must be an attempt to discourage Lebron from coming here
Posted on 6/13/18 at 11:38 am to PenguinPubes
I have a hard time seeing this franchise, from the top down, letting AD go In this case, AD really is the "face of the franchise". Trading him for almost anyone would be too much of a risk for all sorts of reasons.
Posted on 6/13/18 at 12:32 pm to VOR
quote:
I have a hard time seeing this franchise, from the top down, letting AD go In this case, AD really is the "face of the franchise". Trading him for almost anyone would be too much of a risk for all sorts of reasons.
They'd make him walk away from the DPE before trading him for anything.
Posted on 6/13/18 at 12:39 pm to ShamelessPel
quote:
You've yet to even halfway address how Davis and Green work on offense. Why? Because you know it's a train wreck waiting to happen.
Posted on 6/14/18 at 10:21 am to Epic Cajun
quote:You seem to be willing to die on this hill, which is fine, but you're bringing those 2 talking points up at very odd times.
Does him being the best front court sidekick make him a top 11 player in the NBA? Do you think that a team would be successful with Draymond being the best player on that team?
The poster said he'd want Draymond over anyone to play alongside AD, but you're asking him how successful would a team be with Draymond as the best player? Doesn't really seem relevant to what you replied to.
Posted on 6/14/18 at 10:24 am to ShamelessPel
quote:We do this thing where it has to be 1 or the other, it can't be both.
Have you seen Draymond and how he racks up his assists? He sits at the top of the key, NO ONE guarding him, and waits for the GSW offense to start moving and kicks it to one of the 3 best shooters in the game or guys backcutting because the defense is watching the 3 best shooters in the game with 30 freaking foot range.
So you're doing the thing where Draymond only racks up assists because of who he plays with.
The truth is somewhere in the middle. Draymond is a fantastic passer who also benefits from playing with 3 great shooters.
Posted on 6/14/18 at 10:28 am to ShamelessPel
quote:You can't tell a dude he's coasting then do the lazy position thing like that means anything in today's NBA.
You said FRONTCOURT. I am sure I don't have to explain to you what positions are considered the frontcourt in the NBA.
Posted on 6/14/18 at 11:04 am to shel311
quote:
You can't tell a dude he's coasting then do the lazy position thing like that means anything in today's NBA
which i addressed in the post he's responding to.
Shameless and i have back and forths every so often. i think he's bored and wants to go at it some.
i said my piece at the top of this page about Green and my view on his value relative to the rest of the league.
i'm happy to debate Draymond's game and effectiveness. he's just a fascinating player. given the strong feelings Green elicits, most people here will not agree. which is fine.
i'm just not going to write a post countering the claim that Green/Davis wont work b/c shooting
This post was edited on 6/14/18 at 11:06 am
Posted on 6/14/18 at 12:11 pm to corndeaux
Draymond is amazing at what he does for GSW. There’s a Grand Canyon sized drop from the 3 pt shooting of Curry/Thompson/Durant to Rondo/Holiday/Davis. Teams play off Draymond a good 5-7 feet in GSW. They’d likely do the same here which we would have a hard time being able to counter. The Davis/Green pick and roll could be fun. He runs it really well and is able to finish if the defender pays too much attention to the other offensive player, but you can’t build an offense around that. Jrue’s a good cutter, but where are the lanes going to be with this roster.
Now if you want to build a team from scratch and say you’d take Draymond and Davis while surrounding them with shooters, it’s a different argument. There’s more questions about a Davis/Green offensive pairing than a Davis/Cousins one though. Maybe you’re able to stifle defenses with two DPOY caliber players with their movement and size, but you aren’t going to beat a GSW/Houston without being able to score unless you have the wings around those two to defend the perimeter.
It would be a fun experiment, but if you have the pick of the litter, I’m not going for experiment.
Now if you want to build a team from scratch and say you’d take Draymond and Davis while surrounding them with shooters, it’s a different argument. There’s more questions about a Davis/Green offensive pairing than a Davis/Cousins one though. Maybe you’re able to stifle defenses with two DPOY caliber players with their movement and size, but you aren’t going to beat a GSW/Houston without being able to score unless you have the wings around those two to defend the perimeter.
It would be a fun experiment, but if you have the pick of the litter, I’m not going for experiment.
Posted on 6/14/18 at 12:49 pm to shel311
quote:
The poster said he'd want Draymond over anyone to play alongside AD, but you're asking him how successful would a team be with Draymond as the best player? Doesn't really seem relevant to what you replied to.
By any chance did you read the comment that he replied to? Or did you think that I just responded to him for no reason? he was initially responding to a comment I made about him being overrated
ETA: My question was "does being the best sidekick to AD somehow make Draymond 'not overrated'"? Just go re-read the back and forth. I said he was overrated, he replied that he would choose him as the best fit next to AD, then I replied saying that being the best role player doesn't mean he should be rated so highly.
ETA2: If you're going to be ranked as a top 10/11 player in the NBA, you should be able to handle the role as the best player on a team that is a playoff team, as long as your surrounding cast isn't completely dogshit.
This post was edited on 6/14/18 at 12:59 pm
Posted on 6/14/18 at 12:52 pm to corndeaux
quote:
i'm just not going to write a post countering the claim that Green/Davis wont work b/c shooting
To be fair. He's extremely efficient because of gsw's shooting and the sets/off ball movement that gets all 3 of them open.
He averages 7.3 apg and 2.9 tov because of those 3 and their outside shooting. I would guarantee it'd be closer to 5 apg.
Why?
Those 3 combine for 9.8/23.0 from 3, 42.6%
Swap them for rondo, holiday, Davis, and even include Moore and it only comes out to 4.6/12.6 from 3, 36.5%.
Thats not even half of what those 3 combine for and a worse percentage.
Posted on 6/15/18 at 8:31 am to ShamelessPel
quote:
There’s a Grand Canyon sized drop from the 3 pt shooting of Curry/Thompson/Durant to Rondo/Holiday/Davis
gravity works in different ways. it's all about manipulating defenses to get an advantage. Davis is not a 3pt shooter, but he attracts attention wherever he is. that matters. it can be (and has been) used for great effect.
also not sure why he and Rondo are lumped in comparison of GS 3 shooters. it's a still a canyon either way, but it's not an on the level comp. at least throw Mirotic or Moore or Miller in there.
quote:
Teams play off Draymond a good 5-7 feet in GSW.
yes. it's a limit. same time, it's a common tactic that he has seen and already knows how to counter.
teams played off Rondo a good 5-7 feet, the Pels dont have the spacers of GS, and it still worked. there are ways around those limitations, which their offensive system is designed to help mitigate, to get to a good offense.. Draymond aint Rondo level smart/passer, but he's no slouch either. he understands the game on a different level and is among the best as a distributor for a "big"
and the other side of the court matters. do you lose some offense? yes. do you gain defense? yes. i think the Pels would come out ahead in that trade off. you dont. different strokes for different folks
quote:
you’d take Draymond and Davis while surrounding them with shooters
if the Pels could just swap Cousins for Green, i still like the fit a lot. i think you can play Davis/Mirotic/Green together.
Rondo + Green would be an issue, yes. but, given how smart and skilled as passers/cutters both of those guys are, i think they would figure it out and be good enough.
Posted on 6/15/18 at 8:43 am to htran90
to be fair, Rondo and Davis took a combined 4.5 3PA/G. why not swap the best 3 GS 3P shooters with those of the Pels for a less slanted comp? GS will still blow them away, but using Davis/Rondo in comparison of 3pt shooters is absurd
did you know he averaged 7.4 apg before Durant joined the Warriors?
also, do you have numbers for how many assists Green gets off of GS 3s from those 3 shooters? that's a pretty specific claim without any sort of evidence to support it. i'm actually curious about who he hitting and where he's doing it.
the argument isnt that Green will replicate his stats/efficiency from GS. he won't. that does not mean he is a fraud coasting on all the talent in GS
quote:
He averages 7.3 apg and 2.9 tov because of those 3 and their outside shooting. I would guarantee it'd be closer to 5 apg.
did you know he averaged 7.4 apg before Durant joined the Warriors?
also, do you have numbers for how many assists Green gets off of GS 3s from those 3 shooters? that's a pretty specific claim without any sort of evidence to support it. i'm actually curious about who he hitting and where he's doing it.
the argument isnt that Green will replicate his stats/efficiency from GS. he won't. that does not mean he is a fraud coasting on all the talent in GS
This post was edited on 6/15/18 at 8:51 am
Posted on 6/15/18 at 9:18 am to corndeaux
quote:
gravity works in different ways. it's all about manipulating defenses to get an advantage. Davis is not a 3pt shooter, but he attracts attention wherever he is. that matters. it can be (and has been) used for great effect.
also not sure why he and Rondo are lumped in comparison of GS 3 shooters. it's a still a canyon either way, but it's not an on the level comp. at least throw Mirotic or Moore or Miller in there.
Mirotic assumes that one of the 3 will play SF. We have no indication that any can do that. Moore and Miller will feasibly start the season on the bench. You're just throwing guys in there that shoot the 3 ball well to contour an argument that the spacing wouldn't be as bad. Regardless, even if you give Moore or Mirotic in place of Rondo, it's still a grand canyon sized drop.
There simply is no trio on the Pels that comes close to the GSW trio on offense. Gravity works in different ways? Sure. But you're acting like Davis is a black hole while guys like Durant and Curry are regular stars in this particular scenario. They have two gravitational forces equal to Davis on that team.
quote:
teams played off Rondo a good 5-7 feet, the Pels dont have the spacers of GS, and it still worked. there are ways around those limitations, which their offensive system is designed to help mitigate, to get to a good offense..
This to me shows how limited Green is that it could be argued that Rondo is better attacking that 5-7 feet when it comes to scoring and creating his own scoring offense (I think it's much easier to argue Rondo > Green in that area).
quote:
if the Pels could just swap Cousins for Green, i still like the fit a lot. i think you can play Davis/Mirotic/Green together.
I'd take Green over Cousins as well next to Davis/Mirotic. But that wasn't the premise. The premise is that you would take Green over any big in the league (throwing out the traditional SFs here like LBJ/Durant).
Posted on 6/15/18 at 10:05 am to ShamelessPel
quote:
There simply is no trio on the Pels that comes close to the GSW trio on offense
No one is arguing that
quote:
black hole while guys like Durant and Curry are regular stars in this particular scenario
You're putting words in my mouth. I never said anything close to that. You said:
quote:
There’s a Grand Canyon sized drop from the 3 pt shooting of Curry/Thompson/Durant to Rondo/Holiday/Davis
What I said in response is that gravity works in different ways i.e. it doesn't have to be just from 3pt shooting. That they know how to leverage Davis's non 3pt gravity to create space and problems on the court for defenses. And that they do have guys that offer 3pt gravity
Two things-
1) You seem to be operating from a best 5 of Rondo/Holiday/Moore/Davis/Green. I'm not. In crunch time I go Holiday/Moore/Green/Davis/Mirotic
2) It boils down to this- you think Green can only be productive when he plays next to Curry, KD, Klay. I think thats way too dismissive of what he brings to the table
This post was edited on 6/15/18 at 10:10 am
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