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Posted on 3/31/23 at 1:02 pm to Galactic Inquisitor
quote:Well, if both players are injured again next season and we trade Zion for a dude much better than BI, go for it.
Okay, but you are not JUST subtracting Zion. The idea for trading either is to get a piece that fits better.
Best players on the most recent title teams:
Steph
Giannis
Lebron
Kawhi
KD
KD(I'd argue Steph for both of those, but I digress)
Lebron
Steph
Duncan
Lebron
Lebron
Dirk
Kobe
Kobe
KG
Duncan
Wade
Duncan
BI's just not on that level. You have to go that far back to get to the next season with that Pistons team, and they won on elite of the elite defenses, something we won't do.
Again, it's not some controversial take to say BI is not on the level of the dudes listed above, so building around BI is just wasting years. And also again, I am not saying BI has to go, just pointing out what we should all know what will happen and what our limitations are if we decided to build around BI as our #1.
This post was edited on 3/31/23 at 1:03 pm
Posted on 3/31/23 at 1:06 pm to Galactic Inquisitor
quote:Is he trying or not?
So you're saying Lebron isn't a legit #1 and never has been?
Lebron sleep walks to 30 and 8, but gave up in every other respect last season by any account.
He's also 37 and can't play at a high level on both offense and defense any more.
So basically, no Lebron is not a legit #1 that can lead a team to a title any more.
Not sure why you're insinuating my logic means he "never has been" since he's never been on a shitty team before he quit trying last season.
Posted on 3/31/23 at 1:10 pm to Chalkywhite84
quote:We're 11-14 since BI returned, which is the equivalent of a 36 win team, or a 10 game below .500 team
Bi was hurt for awhile
Posted on 3/31/23 at 1:19 pm to shel311
quote:
We're 11-14 since BI returned
We also lost a good bit of depth since he returned too (Dyson was on the end of his recovery from ankle injury, Nance was out, Jose went out)
Posted on 3/31/23 at 1:21 pm to shel311
quote:
Again, it's not some controversial take to say BI is not on the level of the dudes listed above, so building around BI is just wasting years. And also again, I am not saying BI has to go, just pointing out what we should all know what will happen and what our limitations are if we decided to build around BI as our #1.
I'd rather build around a guy who is a threat to make All NBA than piss him away on unknown draft picks because he isn't Jordan. Our best chance at a championship is to build around them both. This either/or talk is nonsense because it disregards an actual, legitimate shot at contending.
Posted on 3/31/23 at 1:22 pm to shel311
quote:
But yet you're advocating to build around BI, where we know we have zero shot to even match what Philly has done? I am not following.
No I’m advocating for not building around Zion. That doesn’t even mean trade him.
If replace Zion with someone who’s more available-like Bam, with your offense built around Ingram CJ and Trey, you reach 50 wins more than likely.
quote:
Philly has 50 wins and is a legit title contender this season. We are a 10 games below .500 team with BI as a #1.
We have a gaping hole at the 4 because both bigs drafted in 2019 don’t play.
Philly is “title contender” every year, and has yet to get out of the second round since Embiid has been there. That isn’t sufficient evidence(that’s anecdotal at best)to make the case that a street clothes player is someone to build around. Furthermore, the Pelicans built around an injury prone player previously and Zion makes Toni look like AC Green by comparison, at this time. Past experience alone should tell you the Pels need available players more than anything, including Ingram
quote:.
, I don't get why we're still arguing BI can be a #1. That window has closed, we should all recognize that and be in agreement that to move forward to maximize success, it does NOT mean without BI, but it does mean with BI not as our #1. How are we not all in agreement on that?
If you’re treating this season as evidence against Ingram on not being a franchise player how does Zion get a pass with 3/4 years of not playing basketball?
Posted on 3/31/23 at 1:24 pm to Galactic Inquisitor
quote:
Our best chance at a championship is to build around them both.
This is the right answer. Every team that has won a title in recent years has had at least two stars.
Posted on 3/31/23 at 1:24 pm to whatiknowsofar
quote:We're nitpicking and getting way in the weeds now, but pretty sure that is offset by us having I believe the easiest SOS in that timeframe.
We also lost a good bit of depth since he returned too (Dyson was on the end of his recovery from ankle injury, Nance was out, Jose went out)
Posted on 3/31/23 at 1:25 pm to shel311
quote:
Because we were 23-14 without Zion.
We haven't really shown much improvement without Zion.
Last season we were 36-46 without Zion. This season we are 22-26, which is the equivalent of a 37 win team.
Okay, and nobody is going to magically make Zion healthy. If you are making your entire argument about the team minus Zion, Brandon Ingram is 100% the best player on your team.
What's the team's record with Zion but no BI?
Posted on 3/31/23 at 1:26 pm to Galactic Inquisitor
quote:AGAIN, that is not my argument.
I'd rather build around a guy who is a threat to make All NBA than piss him away on unknown draft picks because he isn't Jordan
My argument is not trade BI now because he is not Jordan.
My argument is IF BOTH BI and Zion are injured most of the season next season, we basically have to trade 1 of them, and IMO that would be BI, because you don't trade the better, generational talent.
quote:Agreed...unless they BOTH can't stay healthy.
Our best chance at a championship is to build around them both.
Posted on 3/31/23 at 1:27 pm to shel311
We're nitpicking and getting way in the weeds now, but pretty sure that is offset by us having I believe the easiest SOS in that timeframe.
I think the biggest sin the team/org has committed this year is not being able to have guys ready to fill multiple roles and adjust quickly. Anytime we've needed someone to step up it's a laboriois/cost us several games task
I think the biggest sin the team/org has committed this year is not being able to have guys ready to fill multiple roles and adjust quickly. Anytime we've needed someone to step up it's a laboriois/cost us several games task
This post was edited on 3/31/23 at 1:28 pm
Posted on 3/31/23 at 1:28 pm to shel311
quote:
Steph Giannis Toni*Kawhi KD KD(I'd argue Steph for both of those, but I digress) Lebron Steph Duncan Lebron Lebron Dirk Kobe Kobe KG Duncan Wade Duncan
On a title that doesn’t really count.
Posted on 3/31/23 at 1:28 pm to ThanosIsADemocrat
quote:I'm using 7 seasons of Ingram, not this season.
If you’re treating this season as evidence against Ingram on not being a franchise player how does Zion get a pass with 3/4 years of not playing basketball?
The difference is the only thing holding Zion back is injuries. Ingram is simply not good enough to be a #1 on a title contending team. I believe Zion is.
Meaning, with 1 guy you at least have a chance to have THAT level of player. With the other guy, you have no chance to have THAT level of player.
Like someone else said, if you're content with being a Portland, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that opinion. I am not, I want to shoot for the stars.
This post was edited on 3/31/23 at 1:29 pm
Posted on 3/31/23 at 1:29 pm to shel311
quote:
Agreed...unless they BOTH can't stay healthy.
If Zion and Ingram gave us 70 games together next year we'll play at a 60 win pace, they were just starting to figure it out until Ingram hurt his toe
Posted on 3/31/23 at 1:34 pm to Galactic Inquisitor
quote:10-7, equivalent of a 48 win team.
What's the team's record with Zion but no BI?
Posted on 3/31/23 at 1:36 pm to whatiknowsofar
quote:I'm with you, which is why I keep saying we go into next season ready to compete.
If Zion and Ingram gave us 70 games together next year we'll play at a 60 win pace, they were just starting to figure it out until Ingram hurt his toe
My entire premise I laid out is if basically if they give us 70 games next season...combined lol.
At that point, you can't keep going into the following season with your best 2 players unable to stay healthy.
Posted on 3/31/23 at 1:38 pm to shel311
quote:
10-7, equivalent of a 48 win team.
Nope. 11-10, I just verified.
As others have pointed out, we've also had a lot more than Zion miss stretches since BI came back and we struggled, but you seem to have your mind made up on this, so I'm not going to argue context all day.
Again, if you are Championship or Bust, the best path is keeping BI and Zion and hoping Zion can stay healthy. The other option is downgrading from BI and hoping Zion can stay healthy.
Posted on 3/31/23 at 1:49 pm to Galactic Inquisitor
quote:
Nope. 11-10, I just verified.
10/30 - W
11/2 - L
11/28 - W
11/30 - W
12/2 - W
12/4 - W
12/7 - W
12/9 - W
12/11 - W
12/13 - L
12/15 - L
12/17 - L
12/19 - L
12/28 - W
12/30 - W
12/31 - L
1/2 - L
10-7, all games above with Zion and no BI
So, BI with no Zion, 36 win team. Zion with no BI, 48 win team
quote:Agreed, except you hope both can be healthy, but if they can't, something has to be done.
Again, if you are Championship or Bust, the best path is keeping BI and Zion and hoping Zion can stay healthy.
quote:AGAIN, the argument is if BI keeps getting injured like the last couple of seasons. Like the Bridges/BI argument, it may be a downgrade in terms of the who is the better player, but is it a downgrade from 45 games of BI to 82 games of a somewhat lesser player? Probably not, that is what you'd be shooting for...AGAIN...if both BI and ZIon show yet another season next year that they can't both stay healthy.
The other option is downgrading from BI and hoping Zion can stay healthy.
This post was edited on 3/31/23 at 1:52 pm
Posted on 3/31/23 at 2:49 pm to shel311
quote:
Guess I'm the only one who has watched the Pels and know what their record is without Zion the past 2 sesons then.
Shel, this is where your logic always falls apart, basketball is a team game. BI had a triple-dub, and is the topic of the congratulatory thread, but most certainly don't believe he is the sole reason the team won. Herb, CJ, and TM3 all played well and also had contributions from others. Just let the totality of the season play out and acknowledge good play.
For sure the Pels are below .500 since the ASB however they are also .857 in the last seven, but they are all just cherry-picked numbers. I suspect Pels will be a playoff team again this year and hopefully, they'll get big Husky back and continue their ascent.
This post was edited on 3/31/23 at 2:50 pm
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