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Anyone else concerned about Ingram?
Posted on 2/2/21 at 12:28 pm
Posted on 2/2/21 at 12:28 pm
I know we all want him to be KD-light and he has flashes but is that really his potential?
Before this turns into, we've got a million bigger issues than Ingram thread, I get that. I want to talk about him directly because he's a cornerstone (frick YOU GORDON) of the Pels' future.
But he's flawed imo. Severely.
The question I have is does he still have more upside to untap and is the system/coaching holding him back?
Because if this is the final product, I don't think he's a guy you can build a title contender around.
My concerns are the same as last year.
He's one dimensional. He still can't play defense and when his midrange is off, he's a black hole of inefficiency.
His turnovers are crazy. They're so stupid, I do think they're correctable. I mean most of them are just half-arse lazy passes that get stolen or him doing his Lonzo full-court impression which he sucks at.
Him getting jacked off the dribble is concerning and is more a potential long-term issue imo.
He's definitely not proving to be a clutch player but I don't think the system is doing him any favors. He's not quick enough to beat good defenders off the dribble so it usually devolves into a forced step back of some sort.
On a positive note, his 3-point shooting in general is good and he's becoming a better passer.
But what is his final product? I know he's young but if anything, I think he is worse this year than last, if only slightly.
If his max potential is just a volume scorer, I'm not sure he's what we want forever.
Can he get better defensively and with decision making and late-game shooting?
I really hope he's more KD than Monta Ellis.
But I'm not so sure.
Before this turns into, we've got a million bigger issues than Ingram thread, I get that. I want to talk about him directly because he's a cornerstone (frick YOU GORDON) of the Pels' future.
But he's flawed imo. Severely.
The question I have is does he still have more upside to untap and is the system/coaching holding him back?
Because if this is the final product, I don't think he's a guy you can build a title contender around.
My concerns are the same as last year.
He's one dimensional. He still can't play defense and when his midrange is off, he's a black hole of inefficiency.
His turnovers are crazy. They're so stupid, I do think they're correctable. I mean most of them are just half-arse lazy passes that get stolen or him doing his Lonzo full-court impression which he sucks at.
Him getting jacked off the dribble is concerning and is more a potential long-term issue imo.
He's definitely not proving to be a clutch player but I don't think the system is doing him any favors. He's not quick enough to beat good defenders off the dribble so it usually devolves into a forced step back of some sort.
On a positive note, his 3-point shooting in general is good and he's becoming a better passer.
But what is his final product? I know he's young but if anything, I think he is worse this year than last, if only slightly.
If his max potential is just a volume scorer, I'm not sure he's what we want forever.
Can he get better defensively and with decision making and late-game shooting?
I really hope he's more KD than Monta Ellis.
But I'm not so sure.
15
Posted on 2/2/21 at 12:33 pm to ghost2most
My view is that he's still maturing as a player, and taking on the real leadership role of the team this year was a big ask -- he really needed another year before getting that dumped on him.
This team really needs another offensive creator -- I think that BI will be better once Kira is starting at PG instead of Lonzo.
This team really needs another offensive creator -- I think that BI will be better once Kira is starting at PG instead of Lonzo.
Posted on 2/2/21 at 12:34 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
This team really needs another offensive creator -- I think that BI will be better once Kira is starting at PG instead of Lonzo.
Having a PG that can drive and kick will be huge, I agree.
Posted on 2/2/21 at 12:40 pm to ghost2most
Regarding all of the offensive concerns, right now Ingram is the main go to, make something out of nothing option on offense. One of the reasons I wanted Kira was because he was one of college's best P&R players. When they get to the point that Kira is starting, the offense should be completely different and some of that load will be off Ingram and Zion should start getting easier buckets too.
I think his defense looks a lot better and he's making off ball/passing lane plays more often than he used to. He's still not good, but he doesn't have to become your lockdown guy, he just needs to keep improving until he doesn't need to be hidden.
One of the reasons I'm not that interested in Beal or Lavine is that this team won't get where we want it to go until it gets a lead guard. Not another 20 ppg scorer, but a floor general that can weaponize Zion and Ingram. Hopefully Kira's that guy, but if he's not, you need to figure that out and trade war chest assets for that guy, possibly as early as the upcoming draft.
Once the lead guard is in place you can decide what pieces to fit around Zion. Maybe you do cash in Ingram for other pieces, or maybe a Guard/Zion P&R makes Ingram an even bigger threat on offense and gives you an unstoppable 3 man game.
quote:
He still can't play defense
I think his defense looks a lot better and he's making off ball/passing lane plays more often than he used to. He's still not good, but he doesn't have to become your lockdown guy, he just needs to keep improving until he doesn't need to be hidden.
quote:
If his max potential is just a volume scorer, I'm not sure he's what we want forever.
One of the reasons I'm not that interested in Beal or Lavine is that this team won't get where we want it to go until it gets a lead guard. Not another 20 ppg scorer, but a floor general that can weaponize Zion and Ingram. Hopefully Kira's that guy, but if he's not, you need to figure that out and trade war chest assets for that guy, possibly as early as the upcoming draft.
Once the lead guard is in place you can decide what pieces to fit around Zion. Maybe you do cash in Ingram for other pieces, or maybe a Guard/Zion P&R makes Ingram an even bigger threat on offense and gives you an unstoppable 3 man game.
Posted on 2/2/21 at 12:45 pm to ghost2most
The turnovers and the end of game lack of scoring is what is very concerning to me.
I think the turnovers can be fixed with better coaching and offense. We are asking him to do way too much, same with Zion. A real PG, cough cough Kira, helping moving the ball around better should help bring those turnovers down from both of them. 90% of our offense is here BI or Zion, dribble into a wall of guys and make something happen.
I think his clutch performance is heavily tied to what i just said as well, and the team as a whole. Our defense has been horrid at the end of games. BI's percentages in the clutch aren't bad this year but our end game as a whole is just terrible.
I think the turnovers can be fixed with better coaching and offense. We are asking him to do way too much, same with Zion. A real PG, cough cough Kira, helping moving the ball around better should help bring those turnovers down from both of them. 90% of our offense is here BI or Zion, dribble into a wall of guys and make something happen.
I think his clutch performance is heavily tied to what i just said as well, and the team as a whole. Our defense has been horrid at the end of games. BI's percentages in the clutch aren't bad this year but our end game as a whole is just terrible.
Posted on 2/2/21 at 1:02 pm to ghost2most
Not concerned at all.
He’s one of the hardest working 23+ ppg players I’ve ever seen... despite having an efficient scoring machine (Zion) we are still below average in terms of overall efficiency.
We are a bit broken on offense.
He’s one of the hardest working 23+ ppg players I’ve ever seen... despite having an efficient scoring machine (Zion) we are still below average in terms of overall efficiency.
We are a bit broken on offense.
Posted on 2/2/21 at 1:04 pm to ghost2most
Are there pretty good examples of dudes in year 5 who just don't show the ability to be a closer eventually becoming an elite level closer?
Kawhi would be one I can think of, but his career is quite the outlier.
So yea, that's a bit of a concern. Even if he's not a closer, that doesn't mean he's not worth a max though, but it does obviously mean that we need a closer.
Kawhi would be one I can think of, but his career is quite the outlier.
So yea, that's a bit of a concern. Even if he's not a closer, that doesn't mean he's not worth a max though, but it does obviously mean that we need a closer.
Posted on 2/2/21 at 1:17 pm to ghost2most
I am not a fan of Ingram, never have been.
This is what he is. He can score. Especially on a bad team.
I believe he will be a lot like Paul George. If given the right pieces, we can make the playoffs with him. But he is probably more suited to being a complimentary player next to a Superstar. I just don't like his fit next to Zion. There is just zero chance we look to move Ingram for a couple of seasons at least..
quote:
If his max potential is just a volume scorer, I'm not sure he's what we want forever.
This is what he is. He can score. Especially on a bad team.
quote:
I really hope he's more KD than Monta Ellis.
I believe he will be a lot like Paul George. If given the right pieces, we can make the playoffs with him. But he is probably more suited to being a complimentary player next to a Superstar. I just don't like his fit next to Zion. There is just zero chance we look to move Ingram for a couple of seasons at least..
Posted on 2/2/21 at 1:22 pm to brmark70816
quote:
I just don't like his fit next to Zion
You've said a bunch of dumb things, but this one is just ruhtard.
So you don't like a guard that can get his shot off anytime he wants, gets to the rim and draws fouls, and has become a knock down 3 point shooter, you don't like that fit?
Please explain what it is about BI that doesn't fit with Zion.
It's getting hard to really put any stock in anything that is happening this year from a player personnel perspective b/c the coaching and roster construction is so shitty.
Posted on 2/2/21 at 1:25 pm to ghost2most
He’s great but if he has to be able to finish games consistently
Posted on 2/2/21 at 1:34 pm to shel311
quote:
Are there pretty good examples of dudes in year 5 who just don't show the ability to be a closer eventually becoming an elite level closer?
Last year he averaged 46% from the field and 40% from three in the fourth quarter and scored more than guys like Anthony Davis, Luka Doncic, and Jaysom Tatum in that period.
He and Zion both fell from top 20 in scoring in the fourth quarter to outside the top 40.
That to me does not indicate a person problem, it indicates to me a personnel and system issue.
And it’s also worth pointing out the trends seem to be shifting a bit, Ingram isn’t scoring a lot more, but his fourth quarter efficiency has climbed up to nearly 50 percent from the field and 40 percent from three in the last 10 games.
But my hunch is just like with Zion, this is predominately a product of an incomplete system, a lack of continuity, and the amount of energy that is being exerted by our top two guys because of the roster and incomplete scheme that is making our top guys work a lot harder, and it progressively burns them out as the game goes on. And the numbers also bear this out. BI is a top ten scorer in the first quarter(and first half) but his scoring progressively drops every quarter. My guess is if BI didn’t have to work as hard to generate offense, like Gentry sold out the rest of the team to chase last year, we would see BI’s fourth quarter numbers look a lot better.
And I suspect once we get some more complimentary personnel, for instance like a true half court facilitating capable guard that can break down a defense and reliably hit a three, and more spacing, Ingram’s clutch stats will increase dramatically as well, because all his fundamentals and skillsets are sound, he just lacks the right situation to thrive IMO.
This post was edited on 2/2/21 at 1:36 pm
Posted on 2/2/21 at 1:38 pm to brmark70816
quote:
But he is probably more suited to being a complimentary player next to a Superstar.
That's what 30 teams would like if they had a potential superstar
Posted on 2/2/21 at 1:40 pm to Bronc
It also seems like Lonzo starts off games well. He always hits a first quarter 3 and looks pretty good before sucking the rest of the game.
Why are we so hot to start but shite from the second quarter on?
Why are we so hot to start but shite from the second quarter on?
Posted on 2/2/21 at 1:46 pm to ghost2most
I don’t think it is any one thing.
Like I said I think a lot has to do with the fact the roster, offensively, Lonzo included, is just not very good and not complimentary, every bucket is more difficult than it should be because of a lack of spacing, a lack of reliable dribble penetration by our guards, and a lack of reliability and defensive respect for our role players as shooters. And that is going to wear a player down much faster as a game goes on.
This is also a young team, so it’s not shocking to me that these players are still trying to figure out how to properly pace themselves for four quarters. We seem to come out amped up and expend all our energy out the gate while vet teams we play pace themselves much better over the course of the game and so the second half/fourth quarter comes and we are getting gassed while they are still steady.
Our shitty roster construction also really plays into what most fourth quarter defenses look to do, which is sell out to deny the ball and smother your best players. Really easy to take a guy like BI out of the game if you can just cheat off Adams and Lonzo because you don’t fear them beating you.
Combine all those things plus the lack of continuity from season to season and the incomplete offensive system and lack of time for practice, and I think that’s why you see both our top players looking markedly worse this season in the fourth over last.
Like I said I think a lot has to do with the fact the roster, offensively, Lonzo included, is just not very good and not complimentary, every bucket is more difficult than it should be because of a lack of spacing, a lack of reliable dribble penetration by our guards, and a lack of reliability and defensive respect for our role players as shooters. And that is going to wear a player down much faster as a game goes on.
This is also a young team, so it’s not shocking to me that these players are still trying to figure out how to properly pace themselves for four quarters. We seem to come out amped up and expend all our energy out the gate while vet teams we play pace themselves much better over the course of the game and so the second half/fourth quarter comes and we are getting gassed while they are still steady.
Our shitty roster construction also really plays into what most fourth quarter defenses look to do, which is sell out to deny the ball and smother your best players. Really easy to take a guy like BI out of the game if you can just cheat off Adams and Lonzo because you don’t fear them beating you.
Combine all those things plus the lack of continuity from season to season and the incomplete offensive system and lack of time for practice, and I think that’s why you see both our top players looking markedly worse this season in the fourth over last.
This post was edited on 2/2/21 at 1:49 pm
Posted on 2/2/21 at 1:57 pm to ghost2most
I never like to shite on a guy who averages 24 -5 -5 while shooting 40% from 3 but something about his game always bugged me, even last year. I can't even describe what it is.
Posted on 2/2/21 at 2:16 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
Please explain what it is about BI that doesn't fit with Zion.
They are a great compliment if you add basically any archetype of guard besides the two we have lol.
Put a floor general like Chris Paul on this team that could run endless Zion pick and rolls with Ingram on the wing and it would be a better version of the LAC core. Put a combo guard like Beal or Brogdon on this team that is aggressive and can penetrate while running a half court or playing off your other best players and this team would shoot off. Add a fast paced Fox or Kyrie type that can break down a defense and also get to the bucket and the line, and Ingram and Zion explode as a duo.
Hell, it doesn’t even need to be an all star level guard, you could put aged Goran Dragic or Kyle Lowry on this team, Dennis Shroder even, and you would see a transformed duo.
Of course you are talking to someone in Mark that thinks NBA players that are at the level of Ingram peak at 23 and are out of the league by 30, soooo keep that in mind lol
Posted on 2/2/21 at 2:20 pm to Bronc
quote:
This is also a young team,
so a 2nd year player, a 4th year player, a 5th year player, an 8th year player and an 11th year player as your starting five are young, with a 4th and 15th year player as the first two off the bench?
We went out of our way by trading draft picks this year and not playing our rookie to make sure we weren't young.
The Rockets have a new coach and a completely new team, and are far exceeding what anyone expected of them. But youngness and floor spacing and not enough time in the offseason blah blah blah. The Rockets don't have excuses. The Thunder don't have excuses. The Grizzlies don't have excuses. The Cavs don't have excuses. Even the Bulls and the Knicks have been playing better than us, and there's just no reason for us to be one of the 5 worst teams in the league right now, which we clearly are.
They need to turn this shite around this year. I'm not saying they need to make the playoffs or anything, but they cannot continue in the direction they are headed right now without some major changes being made. I"m sorry but depending on what happens with the trade deadline and the rest of the season, i have no problem telling Griff and Stan to get the hell out of here at the end of the season. I'm usually one to give people time to show what their long term plan, but this is clearly heading south really quickly. THere is far too much on the line for this franchise in the very near future. They both have a lot of improvement they need to make this season for me to change my mind about both of them. I can understand maybe with Griff having a more long term roster plan, but regardless of the roster, SVG has been a pretty shitty looking hire thus far.
You can tell me well look at the Mavs and Heat. Well the Heat have missed a ton of games due to covid bullshite and injuries. Bulter has played in less than half their games. The Mavs have had similar issues with covid bullshite, and there has been a lot of talk about Luka and Carlisle not getting along, and i can tell you which guy will win out on that argument if it persists, the one they are about to pay $35+M year to play for them for the foreseeable future.
I doubt either the Mavs or Heat are worried about how they are doing right now, as they both understand the situations they've had with so many starters missing a bunch of time.
Posted on 2/2/21 at 2:45 pm to TeddyPadillac
And The Mavs, Heat, and Raptors all have young veteran mixes with continuity and consensus top 5 coaches, with a history of success that should weather injuries and bumps on the road. All have a record right near ours. You want to give them excuses(which are valid), but deny or handwave the Pels equally valid ones? Seems to me you just want to make a tilted argument to justify some emotional outrage...
The supporting roster stinks, it is not complimentary or the final form this team plans to go to war with. We lack any continuity and very little space to gain it in the schedule. One of the hardest and most brutal schedules in the league with a non-complimentary roster...And you are shocked that this team and our two stars are struggling???? That SVG doesn't have us magically playing playoff ball yet?
Rational fans and the more objective national media could see it a mile away(even Griff in his Ringer interview that took place the beginning of the season could see it), but so many on this board are aghast because they bought into the offseason cultish hype around here and are hitting reality hard.
The supporting roster stinks, it is not complimentary or the final form this team plans to go to war with. We lack any continuity and very little space to gain it in the schedule. One of the hardest and most brutal schedules in the league with a non-complimentary roster...And you are shocked that this team and our two stars are struggling???? That SVG doesn't have us magically playing playoff ball yet?
Rational fans and the more objective national media could see it a mile away(even Griff in his Ringer interview that took place the beginning of the season could see it), but so many on this board are aghast because they bought into the offseason cultish hype around here and are hitting reality hard.
This post was edited on 2/2/21 at 2:49 pm
Posted on 2/2/21 at 3:06 pm to Bronc
quote:
You want to give them excuses(which are valid), but deny or handwave the Pels equally valid ones? Seems to me you just want to make a tilted argument to justify some emotional outrage...
Are we playing without our best player for half the season?
Are we playing without 3 starters for half the season?
We don't have these legitimate excuses. Hell this feels like the healthiest we've been in 10 years.
Our excuses are the same exact excuses the Rockets could be making, but they aren't.
quote:
The supporting roster stinks, it is not complimentary or the final form this team plans to go to war with. We lack any continuity and very little space to gain it in the schedule
Our roster does stink. SO does the Rockets. So does the worst 3 poitn shooting team 2 years in a row Grizzlies. Yet they aren't a bottom 5 team like us.
quote:
One of the hardest and most brutal schedules in the league with a non-complimentary roster
what a tired excuse. This isn't the NFL where you can legitimately have a much easier schedule than others in your conference. Our schedule is no harder than just about every other western conference team.
You know the other day at the end of the Lakers equally long road trip like we had, Lebron came out and basically said he doens't care about the road trip excuses, and that it doesn't matter what the excuse is, they have to play better, we are professionals. That's what winners say. Losers make excuses.
we've played 19 games thus far. 10 of them were against teams that either had expectations below us, or equal to us. We are 4-6 in those games. 6 of our next 8 games are similar in that strength.
You can't tell me any rational person expected us to be this bad, bottom 4 bad. It's one thing to have an expectation to struggle and finish as a 35 win team, it's another to finish with sub 30 wins. You're a pathetic team if you can't even win 30 games, assuming an 82 game schedule.
This post was edited on 2/2/21 at 3:28 pm
Posted on 2/2/21 at 3:32 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
Are we playing without our best player for half the season?
Are we playing without 3 starters for half the season?
We don't have these legitimate excuses. Hell this feels like the healthiest we've been in 10 years.
Our excuses are the same exact excuses the Rockets could be making, but they aren't.
What about having zero continuity and a shitty, non-complimentary roster is not a legitimate excuse to be bad?
quote:
Our roster does stink. SO does the Rockets. So does the worst 3 poitn shooting team 2 years in a row Grizzlies. Yes they aren't a bottom 5 team like us.
Christian Wood is a 23-11 fringe all-star and likely most improved player winner, PJ Tucker is another unicorn that can hit 40% on threes and defend centers or small forwards, John Wall is shooting the best of his career and barely looks to have lost a step from the Achilles, and Victor Oladipo is a vet allstar. That is a VERY solid and COMPLIMENTARY starting unit. They have the best version of Cousins we have seen since his injury, Eric Gordon averaging 17 a game on good shooting, and guys like McLemore hitting 41% on 4 three attempts a game coming off their bench vs Hayes, Hart, and NAW for us.
In what fricking world do you think our roster is more cohesive and better than the Rockets? In what world does that roster even stink???? It's a legit 6-8 seed roster if healthy. Would have been the most cohesive and best roster Harden would have had in years.
quote:
That's what winners say. Losers make excuses.
So then why are you making endless excuses for these other teams and denying them for the Pels?
Either variables are valid to consider or they aren't. If you only want to accept them one way it's because you are trying to make a confirmation biased derived argument.
Fact is Pelicans have had a top 5 SOS, an absolutely brutal road trip, teams like the Heat have lost, when healthy, to guys like Charlotte just yesterday, at home, with rest. And we have a non-complimentary roster, no continuity, and the 6th youngest team in the league. A slow, sometimes painful first half of the season, and frustrations through the end, with the possibility of another lottery, should have always been in the cards, and if you didn't have it in there, that's on your expectations.
quote:
You can't tell me any rational person expected us to be this bad, bottom 4 bad. It's one thing to have an expectation to struggle and finish as a 35 win team, it's another to finish with sub 30 wins. You're a pathetic team if you can't even win 30 games, assuming an 82 game schedule.
Maybe if you spent less time making excuses for why the roster would magically have good spacing instead of just accepting the reality I and people like Zach Lowe tried to point out before the season started, you could have avoided this melt by recognizing that our potential struggles were always there to see if you weren't just wanting to live in a world of sunshine pumping with rose-colored glasses on...
The harm from the lack of continuity is worse than even I thought, but I said in the schedule thread we would come back from that road trip below .500, that from there a lot would come down to how teams like PHO, SAS, and HOU look, and all look better than I think anyone anticipated. I said the range was from around.500 ball after the first 36 games to maybe going on a run after the road trip depending on how bad those teams and others look...And unfortunately, they don't look as bad as I hoped.
This post was edited on 2/2/21 at 3:38 pm
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