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Tubes and analog
Posted on 9/4/23 at 10:36 am
Posted on 9/4/23 at 10:36 am
I know this will be a touchy subject.
Have music lovers and players been duped on tube and analog technology. Music lovers and players will spend thousands on old technology gear and swear to you it’s the best sound ever.
I’m not going to argue they are not, they may be. I’ve heard great tube, analog, and digital.
But, why does the same thing not happen with video? You don’t see old tech in video at all. When is the last time you saw someone with a tube or projection TV and listened as they went on and on about how superior the picture is? Doesn’t happen. Video and sound are different but I also don’t see people with very expensive home theatres running sound off of tube amps and preamps.
Interested to hear everyone’s thoughts on this.
Have music lovers and players been duped on tube and analog technology. Music lovers and players will spend thousands on old technology gear and swear to you it’s the best sound ever.
I’m not going to argue they are not, they may be. I’ve heard great tube, analog, and digital.
But, why does the same thing not happen with video? You don’t see old tech in video at all. When is the last time you saw someone with a tube or projection TV and listened as they went on and on about how superior the picture is? Doesn’t happen. Video and sound are different but I also don’t see people with very expensive home theatres running sound off of tube amps and preamps.
Interested to hear everyone’s thoughts on this.
This post was edited on 9/4/23 at 10:37 am
8
Posted on 9/4/23 at 1:15 pm to wareaglepete
quote:
But, why does the same thing not happen with video? You don’t see old tech in video at all. When is the last time you saw someone with a tube or projection TV and listened as they went on and on about how superior the picture is? Doesn’t happen.
I have heard the odd "projection is better" argument, but rarely. That often depends on WHAT you are projecting (DV, film, analog video)
If you changed it to "is film better than digital video?" you will hear arguments more akin to the tube/solid state argument in audio. Tube video always seemed to be more about convenience than its picture quality.
Posted on 9/5/23 at 9:49 pm to wareaglepete
quote:
You don’t see old tech in video at all.
You are trying to compare apples to oranges.
Video tech is purely about the sharpest picture and resolution/color reproduction. Our eyes see what they see, and our ears hear what they hear.
Audio is better reproduced on analog equipment from original analog sources, as this is what the human ear hears, and it is uncompressed like digital. Also, analog distorts at even orders whereas digital does so at odd orders which produces a harsh sound.
Square wave digital sounds choppy and harsh, sine wave analog sounds pleasant and "organic".
I have a fully tube powered system (granted I have a few grand invested) and I would put it up against digital systems I have heard which cost exponentially more.
Being a musician I'm sure I am not telling you anything you don't already know, but I would think you really would come down on the analog side of things.
ETA: Home theater systems really wouldn't benefit from analog audio because all the TV/movies are Dolby Digital sound processed and recorded/produced for 5.1 or 7.1 theater systems anyway. If we are talking musical recordings...different story where a good analog system shines. That said, the sound is only as good as the source recording and the stylus/turntable it is being reproduced on. The best tube amps in the world will still sound like shite with a dirty/damaged LP and/or a crappy stylus/turntable.
This post was edited on 9/5/23 at 9:56 pm
Posted on 9/5/23 at 10:34 pm to wareaglepete
If you ever hung out on the video / HT boards until a few years ago, you would have seen that there absolutely were still some CRT die hards. The big problem is that the formats advanced so much in 15 years from SD -> HD -> UHD that brought major and obvious improvements to video. Not just resolution but color improved enormously. The CRT tube projectors were already going out due to the size & weight, so nobody really invested in trying to get them to the next level. If analog audio only had 78s, then 8 track & cassette, it would likely have had the same problem.
So in terms of trying to make an apples to apples comparison, I think you have to go a lot farther back for the audio side, which makes sense given that the far lower frequencies & bandwidth involved were easier to handle technically. As a rough comparison I'd suggest:
SD Video = 78 rpm (obvious limitations that anyone can see/hear)
HD Video = LP (capable of reproducing significantly better than the previous tech, and good enough for a large number of folks)
4K/UHD = Hi Res Audio (theoretical benefits that most people don't care that much about, and the source material has to be very high quality to discern)
So in terms of trying to make an apples to apples comparison, I think you have to go a lot farther back for the audio side, which makes sense given that the far lower frequencies & bandwidth involved were easier to handle technically. As a rough comparison I'd suggest:
SD Video = 78 rpm (obvious limitations that anyone can see/hear)
HD Video = LP (capable of reproducing significantly better than the previous tech, and good enough for a large number of folks)
4K/UHD = Hi Res Audio (theoretical benefits that most people don't care that much about, and the source material has to be very high quality to discern)
Posted on 9/5/23 at 11:36 pm to pheroy
Good stuff. Thanks. I like analog. I like digital too, it just seems like a lot of work. I tried some digital multi units and it’s just too much. I like just twisting some knobs.
Posted on 9/6/23 at 8:39 am to tiggerfan02 2021
quote:
Square wave digital sounds choppy and harsh, sine wave analog sounds pleasant and "organic".
This is my view, although they have gotten very good at modelling tube amplifier sounds with digital technology. The warm overdriven sound of a tube amp with the harmonics of the slightly distorted signal is hard to beat.
Visuals are so different. The spectrum to which our eyes can visually distinguish differences in clarity compared to what "sounds good" just isn't the same. I will say, I've never heard of people still desiring tube amps for home theater systems. It's really only in the guitar amp space.
Posted on 9/6/23 at 11:18 am to wareaglepete
You are also comparing two things at very different life stages of advancement.
No one says original Edson cylinder phonographs produced better sound than newer record players.
Audio advanced over to digital to get more power, price and efficiency out of the equipment. All while trying to maintain the purity of sound.
No one says original Edson cylinder phonographs produced better sound than newer record players.
Audio advanced over to digital to get more power, price and efficiency out of the equipment. All while trying to maintain the purity of sound.
Posted on 9/6/23 at 11:21 am to RaginCajunz
The Tubes. Great band. She’s a beauty! It wasn’t till recently I learned that Steve Lukather.played the guitar solo on that
Posted on 9/6/23 at 9:12 pm to wareaglepete
You're comparing methods of production to methods of consumption. Film is still a thing and so is tape. Audio and video are different worlds.
Posted on 9/7/23 at 11:06 pm to Intelligent
Let me ask you this, as a monkey that carried A/V equipment into houses for the other guy to install it in luxury homes.
I get the appeal of analog "authenticity," which is like vinyl vs. FLAC. However, I also helped install 2? gauge (as thick as my thumb) oxygen free speaker wire around some dude's living room doorways at hundreds of dollars a linear foot (mid 90s). If the authenticity is the point, wouldn't an audiophile shun apparent excesses like that, which seem to push analog closer to digital sound profiles?
I get the appeal of analog "authenticity," which is like vinyl vs. FLAC. However, I also helped install 2? gauge (as thick as my thumb) oxygen free speaker wire around some dude's living room doorways at hundreds of dollars a linear foot (mid 90s). If the authenticity is the point, wouldn't an audiophile shun apparent excesses like that, which seem to push analog closer to digital sound profiles?
Posted on 9/8/23 at 12:37 am to LemmyLives
Tubes/analog = mechanical things are actually happening to make sounds.
Digital = emulation of mechanics via algorithms and sampling.
As I said before do not conflate music production with music consumption. The world of high end audio is mostly aesthetic.
When I play guitar, I want tubes and transistors because I personally enjoy it more in that moment. When I'm listening to music, I couldn't care less.
Digital = emulation of mechanics via algorithms and sampling.
As I said before do not conflate music production with music consumption. The world of high end audio is mostly aesthetic.
When I play guitar, I want tubes and transistors because I personally enjoy it more in that moment. When I'm listening to music, I couldn't care less.
Posted on 9/8/23 at 1:14 am to wareaglepete
It all comes down to preference
You can make both badass if you do it right.
..and as far as video, sometimes I like the way film looks as opposed to 4k. Sometimes old concerts seem more intense on film. Live productions in general have a unique feel in film.
You can make both badass if you do it right.
..and as far as video, sometimes I like the way film looks as opposed to 4k. Sometimes old concerts seem more intense on film. Live productions in general have a unique feel in film.
Posted on 9/8/23 at 2:17 pm to tiggerfan02 2021
quote:
Square wave digital
There is NO such thing. Many videos out there with oscilloscopes to illustrate, this guy gives a very good explanation:
Why digital isn't square waves
Posted on 9/8/23 at 2:19 pm to SEClint
quote:
You can make both badass if you do it right.
This.
People have been intentionally f-ing up the sound with digital tools for a couple of decades, it's easier to manipulate in various ways than analog. But if you actually want to make something sound good, clean and natural, you can do great with either analog or digital. It's just the choices in production, mixing, mastering.
Posted on 9/8/23 at 2:31 pm to LemmyLives
quote:
I also helped install 2? gauge (as thick as my thumb) oxygen free speaker wire around some dude's living room doorways at hundreds of dollars a linear foot (mid 90s). If the authenticity is the point, wouldn't an audiophile shun apparent excesses like that, which seem to push analog closer to digital sound profiles?
The belief there is that more (thicker wire) is always better, as electrical resistance decreases with the size of the wire. At extremes of small gauge, that can be measured where you can see negative effects on frequency response (high frequency attenuation). Not sure how that would push it to "digital sound profiles". The authenticity sought is not closest to equipment used in production but in keeping the recorded signal as fanatically pure and protected from the groove to the speaker, so the electrical pathway (among other things) has to be absurdly over provisioned.
This post was edited on 9/8/23 at 2:33 pm
Posted on 9/8/23 at 3:54 pm to pheroy
Here's a fun fact, if you go to the website of any given studio there will likely be a page that lists their equipment.
Example:
electric lady studios
Example:
electric lady studios
Posted on 9/8/23 at 5:18 pm to wareaglepete
Not sure about anything else but a tube guitar amplifier sounds way better than solid state.
Posted on 9/10/23 at 3:45 pm to Shanegolang
This is because guitar amps need to produce some amount of distortion. Most people prefer the sound of distorted tubes versus distorted transistors.
Posted on 9/10/23 at 7:54 pm to wareaglepete
TV went downhill when it went from black and white to color.
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