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re: Why did the Turk think it was necessary kill Vito Corleone?
Posted on 7/10/21 at 12:15 pm to RD Dawg
Posted on 7/10/21 at 12:15 pm to RD Dawg
quote:
uh em what?
you said no Sonny didn't let the Turk know he wanted the deal then proceeded to quote exactly where he slipped
quote:
Perhaps the movie?
Did you start the thread just to be a dick
Where in the movie?
ETA: i forgot Tom does that after he's released but still Tom says in the same sentence that if Vito dies Sonny needs to make the deal, so either Sollozzo doesn't really need Vito's political contacts or it would just a bonus
This post was edited on 7/10/21 at 12:43 pm
1
Posted on 7/10/21 at 12:17 pm to H-Town Tiger
quote:
You are saying you don't agree Sollozzo realized Sonny wanted the deal since Sonny does not exactly say it but. you are saying the Corleones lose their political contacts with out Vito? When does anyone say that?
the political power wouldn't be lost necessarily if Vito died, they knew Sonny would step into the role (or possible Clemenza or Tessio) who would have to go along with the shift in power on the Commission just to keep the peace and keep earning their own money on the street. That and the book (IIRC) goes into Vito having Sonny around and he would have had the same access to the political connections, and those people knew Sonny and knew that he knew they were compromised already from their prior dealings with the family.
ETA: think Sonny taking the call from the cop on their payroll calling him about Vito being shot and he says something about he has an extra thousand coming to him and Sonny utilizing the contacts to try to find Sollozo after Vito is shot and he uses the same connections with the politicians and news papers to control the narrative once Michael kills the two and flees to Sicily.
This post was edited on 7/10/21 at 12:20 pm
Posted on 7/10/21 at 12:21 pm to BorrisMart
quote:
the political power wouldn't be lost necessarily if Vito died
that's my point exactly he asks a question then seems to get mad because he doesn't get the answer he wanted, he says Sollozzo doesn't know Sonny wanted the deal because Sonny doesn't say to Sollozzo "I want your deal" but then proceeds to assume they lose their political power without Vito even though no one ever clearly says it
Posted on 7/10/21 at 12:29 pm to H-Town Tiger
quote:
I'm not sure where you are getting this
Tom Hagen says as much in The Godfather. After Vito had been shot and Tom had been released, the surviving members of the Corleone family held a pow-wow meeting in which the question was asked what would happen if Don Vito didn't pull through. Tom Hagen says the following: "If we lose the old man, we lose our political contacts and half our strength."
Posted on 7/10/21 at 12:40 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
Tom Hagen says the following: "If we lose the old man, we lose our political contacts and half our strength."
ok that's right he sure does, then he says if the old man dies you make the deal Sonny.
So the better question is when Sollozzo says he needs the Don's political contacts does he really?
This post was edited on 7/10/21 at 1:35 pm
Posted on 7/10/21 at 3:40 pm to H-Town Tiger
quote:
ok that's right he sure does, then he says if the old man dies you make the deal Sonny.
In the book, it talks about how Vito was giving Michael the remaining political contacts before he died, so I suppose its assumed that he did the same grooming for Sonny.
Also, the sit down with the Turk is more described in the book and mentions a "flicker in Sollozo's eye" when Sonny speaks out of turn and he realizes that that was his angle in. The Godfather is very operatic and tied in with the old Sicilian way of thinking with proverbs, revenge, and loaded messaging and what not. I wouldn't think too deeply in to it.
Posted on 7/10/21 at 5:23 pm to H-Town Tiger
quote:
And once again,if Vito is gone so are most of the families connections.
I'm not sure where you are getting this
Losing Vito's political connections with his death was quite clearly stated in the movie.
Don't know how this is up for debate.
Posted on 7/10/21 at 6:21 pm to RD Dawg
Posted on 7/10/21 at 9:19 pm to RD Dawg
quote:
Except Sonny never let it "slip" that he wanted the deal in the meeting.
Yes he did, that is why Vito chided him with the "never tell anyone outside of the family what you are thinking again" line.
Posted on 7/10/21 at 10:06 pm to 88Wildcat
quote:
Yes he did
Everybody knows the quote.
Sonny questioned the Tataglia security guarantee and some have interpreted that as tipping his hand to the Turk.But he never stated that he "wanted the deal" or implied it.
Turk was pretty shrewd though and he also picked up on Tom's approval of the deal without him saying a word at the meeting.
Posted on 7/10/21 at 10:20 pm to RD Dawg
quote:As others have stated, this is literally the implication of Sonny's actions. You have to let this one go. You're simply wrong. Although it's been a while, I watched the movies many, many times and read the book multiple times.
Sonny questioned the Tataglia security guarantee and some have interpreted that as tipping his hand to the Turk.But he never stated that he "wanted the deal" or implied it.
Your question about the political connections is a good one, but as another poster said:
quote:There is nuance to everything that is happening.
So the better question is when Sollozzo says he needs the Don's political contacts does he really?
Posted on 7/10/21 at 10:45 pm to 88Wildcat
quote:Vito realized Sonny had tipped his hand. This is one reason he later says "I thought Santino was a bad don".
Yes he did, that is why Vito chided him with the "never tell anyone outside of the family what you are thinking again" line.
Posted on 7/11/21 at 12:03 am to drizztiger
I responded to this:
This is more about semantics more than anything and there's a difference between being highly interested in the deal and wanting to close on one.
As I stated earlier the Turk was very shrewd and he even knew that Tom wanted deal without him saying a word.
Your question about the political connections is a good one
And the same question never occured to you after claiming to have seen the movie and read the book "multiple times?" Interesting and I'd have to ask you why it never did?
It's the main plot line at the beginning of the movie and obviously the reason for the conflict.
Why wouldn't he have needed those contacts and protections? It's what all the other families wanted as well and expressed to the Don at the round table meeting.
Sorry,the question doesn't have much validity.
quote:
Sonny let it slip during their meeting that he wanted the deal
This is more about semantics more than anything and there's a difference between being highly interested in the deal and wanting to close on one.
As I stated earlier the Turk was very shrewd and he even knew that Tom wanted deal without him saying a word.
Your question about the political connections is a good one
And the same question never occured to you after claiming to have seen the movie and read the book "multiple times?" Interesting and I'd have to ask you why it never did?
It's the main plot line at the beginning of the movie and obviously the reason for the conflict.
quote:
So the better question Sonny let it slip during their meeting that he wanted the deal when Sollozzo says he needs the Don's political contacts does he really?
Why wouldn't he have needed those contacts and protections? It's what all the other families wanted as well and expressed to the Don at the round table meeting.
Sorry,the question doesn't have much validity.
Posted on 7/11/21 at 12:20 am to RD Dawg
quote:You come off on this thread super angry and I don't understand why.
And the same question never occured to you after claiming to have seen the movie and read the book "multiple times?" Interesting and I'd have to ask you why it never did?
I claim to have read the book multiple times and seen the movies many, many times because I have.
This shite has been analyzed and discussed many times, but you started OP, therefore people are giving you feedback.
Understanding subtlety and nuance seems to be over your head for this discussion. You want a point blank - Sonny said "I'd take that deal" - or all of Vito's built political connections are gone instantly for the Corleone family.
If you're going to ask thoughts, at least listen to and try to comprehend some of the responses.
Posted on 7/11/21 at 1:24 am to drizztiger
quote:
You come off on this thread super angry and I don't understand why.
It's a valid question and one that I thought of many times watching the movie.Sorry,it's somewhat obvious and I'm not sure why the question offends you.
quote:
claim to have read the book multiple times and seen the movies many, many times because I have.
Okay?
quote:
but you started OP, therefore people are giving you feedback.
Understanding subtlety and nuance seems to be over your head for this discussion
Somewhat laughable considering your explanation regarding the Turk and him perhaps not needing Vito's political connections.Is it not obvious that he did as did the other families?
quote:
Sonny said "I'd take that deal
No idea why this is such an issue for.I get that it's a matter of semantics and nuance however this isnt
quote:
all of Vito's built political connections are gone instantly for the Corleone family.
Do we need to quote Tom Hagen again? It's exactly what he stated and there wasn't anything nuanced about it.Ill be glad to link it for you.
quote:
you're going to ask thoughts, at least listen to and try to comprehend some of the responses
Ya might wanna take your own advice and it who's to say it did make sense and the Turk didn't think out the hit in the first place?Could be as simple as that.
Perhaps you can "comprehend" my response?
Posted on 7/11/21 at 2:33 am to RD Dawg
I'll oblige if you really want to discuss.
The reason I say nuance and subtlety is because there is a larger dynamic than your initial two questions.
Vito was already getting up in age, but the Corleone family was the #1 family with the most power.
Sollozzo was respected from Sicily but needed backing also - Don Barzini as stated.
It was all a power play to begin with from a larger scope than him alone.
1. If Vito accepts the narcotics deal and provides protection/political assets - which they believe he won't - they gain some ground.
2. When Sonny got loose-lipped, it opened the door further for a power play and offing Vito - with the idea Sonny could play along with the deal - gaining more shift in power.
3. They botched the killing of Vito and underestimated Sonny's nature (being Sonny) - and the real difference - Michael.
This wasn't a zero sum game for Barzini/Sollozzo. You ask Vito to help, if he agrees, they gain money and some power. When Sonny slips, they see a further opportunity to weaken the Corleone family and gain even more power. Either Sonny takes the deal or you weaken the Corleone family enough to become head of the "five families" - I believe this was initial Barzini play.
At some point, the idea of they want Vito's political pockets is irrelevant for their goals.
Michael was the main thing they didn't see coming. I'm pretty sure they already killed Luca, etc.
(I could be wrong on some details)
The reason I say nuance and subtlety is because there is a larger dynamic than your initial two questions.
Vito was already getting up in age, but the Corleone family was the #1 family with the most power.
Sollozzo was respected from Sicily but needed backing also - Don Barzini as stated.
It was all a power play to begin with from a larger scope than him alone.
1. If Vito accepts the narcotics deal and provides protection/political assets - which they believe he won't - they gain some ground.
2. When Sonny got loose-lipped, it opened the door further for a power play and offing Vito - with the idea Sonny could play along with the deal - gaining more shift in power.
3. They botched the killing of Vito and underestimated Sonny's nature (being Sonny) - and the real difference - Michael.
This wasn't a zero sum game for Barzini/Sollozzo. You ask Vito to help, if he agrees, they gain money and some power. When Sonny slips, they see a further opportunity to weaken the Corleone family and gain even more power. Either Sonny takes the deal or you weaken the Corleone family enough to become head of the "five families" - I believe this was initial Barzini play.
At some point, the idea of they want Vito's political pockets is irrelevant for their goals.
Michael was the main thing they didn't see coming. I'm pretty sure they already killed Luca, etc.
(I could be wrong on some details)
Posted on 7/11/21 at 8:02 am to RD Dawg
Politicians will always have their hands out. If the Don died then Barzini would have been able to gain more political power.
Posted on 7/11/21 at 9:18 am to RD Dawg
Vito is a pragmatic and thinking kind of boss. Remember, Vito does not start off as a mobster, he becomes one out of necessity. He wants the people he protects to thrive with as little problem as necessary. He provides protection in the neighborhoods he controls for free. He takes care of widows,etc of course this is all explained in Part II. You see it a little in I. Vito instinctively knows that drugs are bad for business and gets in the way of taking the Corleone family legitimate.
This of course runs counter to Sallozzo as well as Barzini who are all about making money no matter what. Not having Corleone on board threatens this. It is not Sallozzo but Barzini that makes the call. He thinks with Vito out of the way he can enforce his business plan. However he misses his mark. When you come for the king, you have to kill him or reap the whirlwind. Vito controls the police and politicos. In the end though Barzini actually gets what he wants....Vito as well as other bosses agree to a compromise....just keep it in the colored neighborhoods but away from schools and kids.
Ultimately though Vito gets the Corleone family into casinos and some semblance of legitimacy by moving to Nevada via Michael. But he has to do it by giving in on the East Coast and leaving it to the street guys. Of course the price for Barzini and Tattaglia for this benefit in the compromise is that Michael eliminates them .
This of course runs counter to Sallozzo as well as Barzini who are all about making money no matter what. Not having Corleone on board threatens this. It is not Sallozzo but Barzini that makes the call. He thinks with Vito out of the way he can enforce his business plan. However he misses his mark. When you come for the king, you have to kill him or reap the whirlwind. Vito controls the police and politicos. In the end though Barzini actually gets what he wants....Vito as well as other bosses agree to a compromise....just keep it in the colored neighborhoods but away from schools and kids.
Ultimately though Vito gets the Corleone family into casinos and some semblance of legitimacy by moving to Nevada via Michael. But he has to do it by giving in on the East Coast and leaving it to the street guys. Of course the price for Barzini and Tattaglia for this benefit in the compromise is that Michael eliminates them .
Posted on 7/11/21 at 9:46 am to KiwiHead
quote:
This of course runs counter to Sallozzo as well as Barzini who are all about making money no matter what. Not having Corleone on board threatens this
Don't disagree with the first part but how is Vito a threat if his business doesn't conflict with Sollozzo and Barzini? Aren't they the threat to the Corleones with the narcotics business and growing more powerful? Perhaps Sollozzo & Co are worried Vito would align against them with his political contacts and law enforcement.
Posted on 7/11/21 at 10:16 am to RD Dawg
I suggest that the OP read the book, it explains the nuance and subtly of the situation much better and gives more detail about the meeting, and situation in general, and explains explicitly what some characters are thinking.
Its mafia stuff so its obviously cloaked in secrets and treachery. It was all a power play, by Sonny speaking out of turn, it was showing the Turk that Sonny was interested in the deal "because it was so good that the Tattaglia's guaranteed their initial investment" and they knew Sonny was a hot head but would be forced to get in line with the program if his dad died, in the interest of protecting the family and their money. They also knew that if Sonny did not, someone below him in his own family would have taken him out, because thats Cosa Nostra.
Its mafia stuff so its obviously cloaked in secrets and treachery. It was all a power play, by Sonny speaking out of turn, it was showing the Turk that Sonny was interested in the deal "because it was so good that the Tattaglia's guaranteed their initial investment" and they knew Sonny was a hot head but would be forced to get in line with the program if his dad died, in the interest of protecting the family and their money. They also knew that if Sonny did not, someone below him in his own family would have taken him out, because thats Cosa Nostra.
This post was edited on 7/11/21 at 4:47 pm
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