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Why are modern filmakers so addicted to overly complex plots?
Posted on 12/26/17 at 8:39 am
Posted on 12/26/17 at 8:39 am
a few twists and turns is one thing, but bloated labyrinths of shite on screen is a modern plague of the movie industry
too many characters
too many subplots
too many shock-twists
too many climaxes
etc
in a very ironic twist, you REALLY see it with franchise reboots and sequels, where the primary source material is typically not complicated at all. TLJ was a complicated mess of a story (i won't include spoilers) that was not only borderline incoherent, but it also had schizophrenic tonal shifts at random and random twist after twist inefficiently thrown in
i mean hell even one of my most beloved guilty pleasures, Bad Boys 2, suffers from this mightily. a movie of the quality and style of Bad Boys 2 should NEVER suffer from being overly complex in terms of plot
is it the artistic dilemma where the creators confuse complexity with creativity?
it is a production dilemma where the studios mandate more characters and the creators have to fit them in by adding in subplots?
do both the creators and studios think that audiences want these stories?
too many characters
too many subplots
too many shock-twists
too many climaxes
etc
in a very ironic twist, you REALLY see it with franchise reboots and sequels, where the primary source material is typically not complicated at all. TLJ was a complicated mess of a story (i won't include spoilers) that was not only borderline incoherent, but it also had schizophrenic tonal shifts at random and random twist after twist inefficiently thrown in
i mean hell even one of my most beloved guilty pleasures, Bad Boys 2, suffers from this mightily. a movie of the quality and style of Bad Boys 2 should NEVER suffer from being overly complex in terms of plot
is it the artistic dilemma where the creators confuse complexity with creativity?
it is a production dilemma where the studios mandate more characters and the creators have to fit them in by adding in subplots?
do both the creators and studios think that audiences want these stories?
15
Posted on 12/26/17 at 8:41 am to SlowFlowPro
New directors and writers trying to blow it up, in many cases.
Posted on 12/26/17 at 9:08 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
creators confuse complexity with creativity
Posted on 12/26/17 at 9:08 am to SlowFlowPro
Probably similar to how computer games at one point all had to be massively multiplayer or "open world."
There's that pressure to make things things as lifelike as possible, where many subplots do exist, to create immersion. However, life is long, drawn out with long periods of nothing going on while movies are short, and this is where things go wrong.
There's that pressure to make things things as lifelike as possible, where many subplots do exist, to create immersion. However, life is long, drawn out with long periods of nothing going on while movies are short, and this is where things go wrong.
Posted on 12/26/17 at 9:14 am to SlowFlowPro
Don’t forget to include due blame on the audience.
Our attention spans are getting smaller and smaller. Large portions of the audience don’t want deep characters with multiple layers they have to peel back over 2 hours. So writers and directors replace an intense study of a few characters with a dozen different archetypes flying through plot twists simply for the sake of twisting the plot. It’s to try and hold onto our limited attentions for a little longer
Our attention spans are getting smaller and smaller. Large portions of the audience don’t want deep characters with multiple layers they have to peel back over 2 hours. So writers and directors replace an intense study of a few characters with a dozen different archetypes flying through plot twists simply for the sake of twisting the plot. It’s to try and hold onto our limited attentions for a little longer
Posted on 12/26/17 at 9:28 am to funnystuff
quote:
Our attention spans are getting smaller and smaller. Large portions of the audience don’t want deep characters with multiple layers they have to peel back over 2 hours. So writers and directors replace an intense study of a few characters with a dozen different archetypes flying through plot twists simply for the sake of twisting the plot. It’s to try and hold onto our limited attentions for a little longer
My first reaction is to wholeheartedly agree with you. Nothing like shitting on “these kids today”!
But on second thought, how do we explain the huge success of the dramatic mini-series type shows on HBO and Netflix, etc? Breaking Bad had some of the most detailed and LONG character arcs imaginable. Game of Thrones as well (although GOT could be criticized for doing exactly what SFP is talking about in the OP).
Posted on 12/26/17 at 9:42 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Why are modern filmakers so addicted to overly complex plots?
a few twists and turns is one thing, but bloated labyrinths of shite on screen is a modern plague of the movie industry
too many characters
too many subplots
too many shock-twists
too many climaxes
etc
in a very ironic twist, you REALLY see it with franchise reboots and sequels, where the primary source material is typically not complicated at all. TLJ was a complicated mess of a story (i won't include spoilers) that was not only borderline incoherent, but it also had schizophrenic tonal shifts at random and random twist after twist inefficiently thrown in
Great observation. I wonder if we are seeing the effect of post modernism on the movie industry. Let me explain.
Movies need endings. In fact, we expect some sort of message or universal truth being revealed, if not a straight-up conclusion.
That’s where post-modernism struggles. The instinct is to break rules, defy expectations, put a twist on old “tropes”. But post-modernism lacks the ability to build cohesion, to reach for moral truths, or to create a coherent future timeline.
With a post-modern influence, the dystopias don’t need to be plausible or need to teach a lesson other than to be a display of the absurdity of a modern cliche taken to the extreme.
With post-modernism, relationships don’t need to make sense or be realistically nuanced, they only need to break down old expectations.
The “great sin” of post-modern film making is to be unoriginal or predictable. Originality is a fine thing, but it’s not the only thing, not by a long shot.
Posted on 12/26/17 at 9:54 am to SlowFlowPro
both of the latest James bond’s are guilty of this. The bad guys basically play Jesus in their planning and every twist was thought out ahead of time. Bond just reacts. You’d think the best spy in the world would be interrupting plans ala casino royal.
Then you watch a movie like die hard or predator and you wonder why they can’t make actions movies like they did in the 80s.
Dredd is the only action movie in recent memory that was able to capture the feel of 80s action. Simple plot, not cgi driven (sans the drug scenes) and a bad guy was simple motives.
Then you watch a movie like die hard or predator and you wonder why they can’t make actions movies like they did in the 80s.
Dredd is the only action movie in recent memory that was able to capture the feel of 80s action. Simple plot, not cgi driven (sans the drug scenes) and a bad guy was simple motives.
This post was edited on 12/26/17 at 10:01 am
Posted on 12/26/17 at 9:56 am to funnystuff
quote:
Don’t forget to include due blame on the audience.
Our attention spans are getting smaller and smaller.
from OP
quote:
do both the creators and studios think that audiences want these stories?
Posted on 12/26/17 at 9:57 am to Jimbeaux
quote:
Movies need endings. In fact, we expect some sort of message or universal truth being revealed, if not a straight-up conclusion.
That’s where post-modernism struggles. The instinct is to break rules, defy expectations, put a twist on old “tropes”. But post-modernism lacks the ability to build cohesion, to reach for moral truths, or to create a coherent future timeline.
naw b/c almost all movies still reach that conclusion
they're just convoluted as frick in getting there
Posted on 12/26/17 at 9:57 am to Jimbeaux
quote:
(although GOT could be criticized for doing exactly what SFP is talking about in the OP).
the later seasons? yes. they fall victim to this
Posted on 12/26/17 at 10:10 am to Jimbeaux
quote:
With a post-modern influence, the dystopias don’t need to be plausible or need to teach a lesson other than to be a display of the absurdity of a modern cliche taken to the extreme.
Blade runner and black mirror are probably the best examples of recent dystopian tv/film in the past few year. Both to varying degrees work on the idea that are devices are the drivers of the unsettlingly universes.
Back in the day it was a bit easier to make this movies because all you had to do was say “well we nuked each other” or just used another government buggyman.
It’s a bit harder to make a dystopian when the people funding the picture and sometime sellings product placesment in the pictures have ties to the corporations like apple or GE or whatever
It’s one of the reasons we get shall dystopian films like the hunger games that are geared toward kids.
This post was edited on 12/26/17 at 10:11 am
Posted on 12/26/17 at 10:15 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
do both the creators and studios think that audiences want these stories?
As much testing as they do, I'm guessing they are painting by numbers at the studio's direction following proven strategies and formulas. When you invest $10s or even $100s of millions of dollars in a film they probably don't leave much to chance.
Posted on 12/26/17 at 11:07 am to SlowFlowPro
Bad Boys 2, that chase in.Cuba was bad arse.
Posted on 12/26/17 at 11:10 am to Napoleon
oh 100%
BB2 is one of the most fun movies ever
BB2 is one of the most fun movies ever
Posted on 12/26/17 at 11:19 am to SlowFlowPro
1. Studio involvement, maximizing the audience, expanding marketing beyond the movie
2. Shoe-horning too many agendas thereby forcing multiple subplots
2. Shoe-horning too many agendas thereby forcing multiple subplots
Posted on 12/26/17 at 1:44 pm to SlowFlowPro
Lucas made a mess of the Star Wars universe with his last two prequels.
A New Hope was about as straightforward a Knight's tale as you could get.
Boy orphaned on planet, left alone, finds a Merlin mentor, has to deliver a message to people he's never met before and a fight he's not a part of...becomes part of the fight unwittingly, saves Princess, becomes a Knight, defeats the foe...becomes the hero almost by serendipity.
The end.
It's linear, it's a basic fable, it's clear, it relies on the characters and the strength of basic storytelling.
Everybody wants to be Memento now.
Look at the Batmans.
A New Hope was about as straightforward a Knight's tale as you could get.
Boy orphaned on planet, left alone, finds a Merlin mentor, has to deliver a message to people he's never met before and a fight he's not a part of...becomes part of the fight unwittingly, saves Princess, becomes a Knight, defeats the foe...becomes the hero almost by serendipity.
The end.
It's linear, it's a basic fable, it's clear, it relies on the characters and the strength of basic storytelling.
Everybody wants to be Memento now.
Look at the Batmans.
Posted on 12/26/17 at 1:47 pm to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
There’s only so many plots. These self righteous queers think, SOMEHOW, they can invent new ones.
I’m so drunk
I’m so drunk
Posted on 12/26/17 at 1:48 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
here’s only so many plots. These self righteous queers think, SOMEHOW, they can invent new ones.
that's what i meant by "complex is creative" comment in OP
Posted on 12/26/17 at 1:49 pm to SlowFlowPro
bland emoji response
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