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The Marvel Problem (Video Essay)
Posted on 10/17/17 at 1:05 am
Posted on 10/17/17 at 1:05 am
This is an interesting video that I believe can generate some discussion. What will the legacy of the Marvel Cinematic Universe be? In fact...what will the legacy of any shared universe be? I argue that these shared universes are really hamper filmmakers and disallowing film executives from taking any real risks with blockbuster films.
Here is the video author's concluding thoughts:
YouTube Link
Here is the video author's concluding thoughts:
quote:
As much as I would love to venerate Marvel's efforts to promote comic books beyond the fringes, too often its films are a celebration of the worst aspects of the industry: pandering to audience's expectations, relying on the intervention of other characters to create action, and forcing audiences to consume all the tie-ins in order for each individual component to make sense. What's worse, the desire to turn every franchise into a universe of interconnected component parts has relegated plot to a distant, secondary concern.
But the truly troubling thing about the MCU is that its central appeal remains economic rather than fictional, and its success means that it will have a dramatic impact upon the thinking of an entire generation of people. That is to say if the Star Wars generation was scientists and inventors, the Marvel generation will be business executives and marketing professionals - and that really sucks.
YouTube Link
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Posted on 10/17/17 at 2:12 am to RollTide1987
Somewhat fair.
As someone who hasn't read comics in a long time I have been puzzled by what has happened to the Marvel Universe in comics. One of the great virtues of having such a large number of movies with young audiences watching would be the ease with which it could add new readers.
But it seems like many of the popular characters have been replaced. In one example (Captain America) the original character has been turned into the antithesis of what he was created to be... surely alienating any of the people who grew up loving that character and ruining the possibility of people wanting to follow Steve Rogers after seeing him for the first time on the big screen.
As someone who hasn't read comics in a long time I have been puzzled by what has happened to the Marvel Universe in comics. One of the great virtues of having such a large number of movies with young audiences watching would be the ease with which it could add new readers.
But it seems like many of the popular characters have been replaced. In one example (Captain America) the original character has been turned into the antithesis of what he was created to be... surely alienating any of the people who grew up loving that character and ruining the possibility of people wanting to follow Steve Rogers after seeing him for the first time on the big screen.
Posted on 10/17/17 at 3:10 am to RollTide1987
Seems overly dramatic.
And the part about producing a generation of businessmen instead of scientists is just ludicrous.
And the part about producing a generation of businessmen instead of scientists is just ludicrous.
Posted on 10/17/17 at 8:37 am to RollTide1987
quote:
That is to say if the Star Wars generation was scientists and inventors, the Marvel generation will be business executives and marketing professionals - and that really sucks.
The Star Trek generation were the scientists and inventors.
The Star Wars generation were the artists and creators.
Marvel will be the same. People wanting to write and make movies about heroes of some kind.
Posted on 10/17/17 at 9:12 am to RollTide1987
I wish video essay existed when I was in school I would have turned a few more in
Posted on 10/17/17 at 9:37 am to RollTide1987
quote:
What will the legacy of the Marvel Cinematic Universe be? In fact...what will the legacy of any shared universe be?
It's a fad, it will be eventually go away similar to western films.
Posted on 10/17/17 at 9:55 am to RollTide1987
quote:
The Marvel Problem
When you average nearly a billion dollars in box office gross world wide for every movie since the Avengers came out, 11 of them, and your merchandise sales are through the roof, and hype for your upcoming films is still through the roof, i'm pretty sure you don't have a problem.
Posted on 10/17/17 at 10:21 am to TeddyPadillac
Truth 
Posted on 10/17/17 at 11:02 am to RollTide1987
quote:
promote comic books beyond the fringes, too often its films are a celebration of the worst aspects of the industry: pandering to audience's expectations, relying on the intervention of other characters to create action, and forcing audiences to consume all the tie-ins in order for each individual component to make sense. What's worse, the desire to turn every franchise into a universe of interconnected component parts has relegated plot to a distant, secondary concern.
These are the hallmarks of the industry, not really "the worst parts." DC nor Marvel mainstream comic books are Sandman or East of West, full of brilliant art, long, intricate plots, deep, meaningful themes, challenging narrative, etc.
These are comic books. Comparing Avengers or JL to Sandman is unfair.
quote:
That is to say if the Star Wars generation was scientists and inventors, the Marvel generation will be business executives and marketing professionals - and that really sucks.
1) This is just incorrect
2) The main problem is the writer can't disconnect his own view of the properties with a child's view. I'm sure lots of adults at the time looked at Star Wars as pure entertainment with little long term value.
Plus, pinning the future of children of Marvel is a little disingenuous, when their plain exposure to everything through the Snapchat, Twitter lens and the innateness of nearly all of the content has a bigger effect.
Is Keeping up the Kardashians or Marvel going to impact children more?
Posted on 10/17/17 at 11:44 am to RollTide1987
The first 10 minutes of the video is him criticizing the use of Chekhov's Gun. Which is sort of like condemning all western drama. Star Wars also has a standard storytelling trope: the wisened teacher character who must die in order for our hero to truly attain his heroic stature (which Star Wars uses with Ben in Star Wars and Vader in Jedi).
And if he thinks the blockbuster film wasn't the triumph of marketing execs, then he's completely ignorant of film history. I've got nothing against the blockbuster era, but it was definitely an era in which auteurs lost control and it was returned to studios and moneymen. I don't think that argument withstands even the barest scrutiny.
What will Marvel's legacy be one people? Who knows? But I would guess that it would inspire a generation of empathy. The films constantly stress the most heroic thing is to have empathy for others and our interconnectedness. So I think it wouldn't focus on building new worlds, but strengthening existing communities.
And if he thinks the blockbuster film wasn't the triumph of marketing execs, then he's completely ignorant of film history. I've got nothing against the blockbuster era, but it was definitely an era in which auteurs lost control and it was returned to studios and moneymen. I don't think that argument withstands even the barest scrutiny.
What will Marvel's legacy be one people? Who knows? But I would guess that it would inspire a generation of empathy. The films constantly stress the most heroic thing is to have empathy for others and our interconnectedness. So I think it wouldn't focus on building new worlds, but strengthening existing communities.
Posted on 10/17/17 at 11:47 am to RollTide1987
This dude sounds like fun.
Posted on 10/17/17 at 11:54 am to PowerTool
quote:
And the part about producing a generation of businessmen instead of scientists is just ludicrous.
It's a strange take considering Tony Stark is an inventor, Bruce Banner is a scientist, and half the characters have their powers due to science experiments/inventions.
This post was edited on 10/17/17 at 11:56 am
Posted on 10/17/17 at 11:55 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:
When you average nearly a billion dollars in box office gross world wide for every movie since the Avengers came out, 11 of them, and your merchandise sales are through the roof, and hype for your upcoming films is still through the roof, i'm pretty sure you don't have a problem.
You basically just described the point the narrator in the video was trying to make. He believes that Marvel is more concerned with its bottom line than making exceptional products. Each film in the universe follows a formula that takes absolutely zero risks and does just enough to deliver a product of decent quality. As a result...you are starting to see more and more cookie cutter movies as studios hesitate to take risks.
People on this board consistently wonder why Hollywood films have become bland. The MCU and the shared universe concept are just a couple of reasons why.
This post was edited on 10/17/17 at 11:59 am
Posted on 10/17/17 at 12:22 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
Each film in the universe follows a formula that takes absolutely zero risks and does just enough to deliver a product of decent quality.
People say this, but I don't think its true. The MCU has taken huge risks to varying degree of success, but gets tagged with this idea of the formula. Let's first start with the concept of the shared universe in the first place was extremely risky when they first started the course. But here's some other story-telling risks they've made:
- Iron Man 3 doesn't really have Iron Man it.
- Doctor Strange's climatic battle sequence is the main character's refusal to engage in battle
- Thor 2 has a character dedicated to make fun of the movie as an audience surrogate (Kat Dennings) and its climatic scene is the slamming doors sequence out of Scooby Doo.
- Ant-Man has a literal avant garde sequence when he goes subatomic.
- Guardians' plot/setting is insane, and are fairly obscure characters. we're talking about aliens who live inside a decapitated god's head floating in space. This was an incredibly ballsy film to make
I mean, the MCU won't be confused with Shane Carruth or anything, but the movies take more chances than its reputation suggests.
Posted on 10/17/17 at 12:39 pm to Baloo
I haven't watched the video because it's a 95% chance it's some 25-40yo autist standing in front of a wood panelled bedroom wall talking nonsense.
The MCU is an outgrowth of James bond and the old serials. You didn't need to watch em all but all the movies had nods here and there to things before.
MCU just turned those nods into a plot device, but every story has been self contained outside it's direct prequel except civil war but that was really avengers 3 and a dress rehearsal for Infinity War.
As has been pointed out a lot of risk had been taken. It just hasn't been appreciated. We're also seeing more of the villains survive at the end now too which can be a world changer.
The MCU is an outgrowth of James bond and the old serials. You didn't need to watch em all but all the movies had nods here and there to things before.
MCU just turned those nods into a plot device, but every story has been self contained outside it's direct prequel except civil war but that was really avengers 3 and a dress rehearsal for Infinity War.
As has been pointed out a lot of risk had been taken. It just hasn't been appreciated. We're also seeing more of the villains survive at the end now too which can be a world changer.
Posted on 10/17/17 at 1:34 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
You basically just described the point the narrator in the video was trying to make.
He's basically trying to blame the MCU b/c movies like Ex-Machina aren't successful so they won't continue to make them as frequently. I loved Ex-Machina by the way.
quote:
He believes that Marvel is more concerned with its bottom line than making exceptional products. Each film in the universe follows a formula that takes absolutely zero risks and does just enough to deliver a product of decent quality
First off, saying they are decent quality is subjective, and millions upon millions of people in this world think they are better than decent.
Do we live in a world where money doesnt' matter? Should we only have mom and pop stores everywhere instead of Walmarts? Everyone claims to hate Walmart, yet outside of the big oil companies and the government motors, they are the largest corporation in the world. They didnt' get there by taking risks. They had a smart business plan, and stuck to it, and now their great great great great grandkids wipe their arse with $1000 bills.
What Marvel is doing isn't preventing movies like Ex-Machina from being made. Hollywood thinking they have to spend $150M to make a movie be good, is the problem.
The Revenant spends $150M, makes half a billion.
Blade Runner spends $150M, barely makes it's money back.
Mad Max spends $150M, makes $375M.
Make a good movie, and you'll make money. Make a shitty movie, and you won't. You don't have to have Leonardo Di Caprio, or Mark Walberg, or the Rock in your movie for it to be successful.
The Hangover had a $35M budget, and made half a billion.
Posted on 10/17/17 at 1:43 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
He's basically trying to blame the MCU b/c movies like Ex-Machina aren't successful so they won't continue to make them as frequently. I loved Ex-Machina by the way.
I was under the impression that studios need these blockbuster movies to succeed in order to fund the smaller projects, like Ex Machina. At least, that's what I've read elsewhere.
I, too, LOVED Ex Machina and hope to continue to see movies of that caliber make it to the big screen.
Posted on 10/17/17 at 1:46 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
As a result...you are starting to see more and more cookie cutter movies as studios hesitate to take risks.
Yep, it saddens me that blade runner is a flop. JL and Thor will make a killing so we'll just keep getting more and more of these weak films.
Posted on 10/17/17 at 1:52 pm to VinegarStrokes
Ex Machina was an indie film, made by the studio A24. It is the second highest grossing film in the studio's history (behind Moonlight). Ex Machina was a massive success, even though it only made $25 million. It's not even playing in those blockbuster waters. The MCU has as much effect on A24 as McDonald's has on a Michelin rated restaurant.
By the way, A24 is an amazing studio and you should pretty much watch anything they put out right now.
By the way, A24 is an amazing studio and you should pretty much watch anything they put out right now.
Posted on 10/17/17 at 2:22 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
He believes that Marvel is more concerned with its bottom line than making exceptional products. Each film in the universe follows a formula that takes absolutely zero risks and does just enough to deliver a product of decent quality.
I feel like this South Park's 9-11 episode, it's more important that people THINK Marvel is this important and powerful, because they really aren't. I don't think the MCU is changing all that much on its own.
Particularly because
quote:
As a result...you are starting to see more and more cookie cutter movies as studios hesitate to take risks.
This was happening long before 2008 on a "Wide Release" scale. Yes, more and more wide release films generally take less chances since probably the 80s-90s, but this has been going on since the early 2000s. Notice I didn't say less movies are taking chances, because, there are still a ton of individual films getting made that, honestly, probably don't need and aren't built for wide appeal.
There are lots and lots of people who are totally uninterested in something like Ex Machina, and that's ok.
quote:
People on this board consistently wonder why Hollywood films have become bland. The MCU and the shared universe concept are just a couple of reasons why.
I think sequelitis and remake-itis are more detrimental to the modern Hollywood landscape than the MCU. And you'd have an easier time blaming Star Wars, LOTR and Harry Potter for opening that door.
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