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re: The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power S1, Ep. 1 and 2 Thread | Amazon 9:00 pm EDT
Posted on 9/2/22 at 12:20 pm to SammyTiger
Posted on 9/2/22 at 12:20 pm to SammyTiger
quote:
This thread is 100x more civil.
I think It’s secretly because it not anywhere near as bad as they were pretending it was going to be.
And there are concrete things to discuss.
It's not near bad at all. It's a very good.
0
Posted on 9/2/22 at 12:20 pm to blueboy
quote:Did she die? No.quote:
Fëanor didn’t just lead people into battle. He fought and died of wounds in battle.
Did Galadriel?
Do you get any impression of Elrond being a great warrior AT ALL, outside of him stating that he was Gil Galad's standard bearer and stood alongside him at the final battle?
No, he's just some noble Elf in robes, living in a hidden mountain vale where everyone sings songs.
Who apparently has been on the field of battle both against Sauron, and against Morgoth at the end of the First Age, and lived to tell about it.
And I'm throwing that part about the War of Wrath in, purely speculative. Because I don't remember reading any details saying he was there, but if he was alive and capable of it, you then can make the assumption he participated.
Added: and Elrond doesn't bring up his time battling in the Last Alliance, other than to point out he was there and saw Isildur take the Ring firsthand, and not destroy it.
He doesn't speak of his glory, Elves don't seem to fixate on war accomplishments as such. He didn't say he took down a dozen Trolls and hundreds of Orcs in the decades of that war, or anything of the sort. He simply says, I WAS THERE.
This post was edited on 9/2/22 at 12:26 pm
Posted on 9/2/22 at 12:21 pm to Jay Are
quote:
also only watched the first episode. The episode works so hard to mimic Peter Jackson's visual style and tone that I don't understand how anyone could feel this way.
Because elves do not feel or look like Tolkien elves. Elrond does not look like an elf. Literally he is barely taller than the dwarfs. He is wearing zero armor and completely is opposite of Elrond in the books. He was not a politician, he was a warrior prince then established his own city.
If you use the names from LOTR, then you cannot change their characters from what is written. That is why people hate this so much.
Posted on 9/2/22 at 12:23 pm to FreddieMac
quote:
Literally he is barely taller than the dwarfs
That’s factually incorrect. Literally he is significantly taller than the dwarves.
The actor is 6”
quote:
He is wearing zero armor and completely is opposite of Elrond in the books. He was not a politician, he was a warrior prince then established his own city.
Elrond didn’t wear any armor in Fellowship outside the flashbacks
And there are a word for political leaders who establish their own cities. Politicians.
This post was edited on 9/2/22 at 12:26 pm
Posted on 9/2/22 at 12:26 pm to Scoob
quote:
She's an Elf, not a human. They have different bodies. This seems simply to be a different extension of that concept; she (an Elf) apparently would be capable of continuously swimming, without succumbing to fatigue, until she reaches land. Food- well, it's nice, but not necessary like for humans. Sleep- same thing. She could drift into basically a state of meditation, possibly contemplate the wonders of Ulmo's realm and speculate whether he or Osse might show up to speak to her, and just keep those arms and legs moving, until she hits a beach. And then roll over and say "well, that was a workout, I might rest here 30 minutes and then go find out where I'm at".
Cringe
Posted on 9/2/22 at 12:28 pm to SammyTiger
quote:You go to other works to fill in the details. More likely she fought fiercely in a magical or political sense.
I literally Quoted a passage Tolkien wrote that described fierce fighting and no other details.
That would fit her character perfectly.
A character as important as Galadriel, were she to have worn armor in battle, it would be on display as a relic of note. That's how big a deal that would be.
So I imagine it woulda been notable.
quote:So your contention is that in that single passage, it doesn't say she didn't. . .so she could have?
Again, I showed You an actual quote that doesn’t.
The book doesn't say Samwise didn't become a fascist dictator of the shire, but we can assume from what we know about Samwise that that isn't the case.
Same with Galadriel. Use Tolkein to clarify Tolkein.
Posted on 9/2/22 at 12:36 pm to Scoob
So you're trying to expand the character of Elrond to now encompass Galadriel because - elves?
BTW, remind me of how Elrond is portrayed in the show.
BTW, remind me of how Elrond is portrayed in the show.
Posted on 9/2/22 at 12:39 pm to OBReb6
quote:Why cringe? It's straight from Tolkien's work, Elves do not succumb to the same physical toils Men do. They don't get sick, age, or really even eat (it's more ceremonial). They don't sleep. They're initially stunned to see Men, who at first appear to be similar, display mortality and frailties.quote:
She's an Elf, not a human. They have different bodies. This seems simply to be a different extension of that concept; she (an Elf) apparently would be capable of continuously swimming, without succumbing to fatigue, until she reaches land. Food- well, it's nice, but not necessary like for humans. Sleep- same thing. She could drift into basically a state of meditation, possibly contemplate the wonders of Ulmo's realm and speculate whether he or Osse might show up to speak to her, and just keep those arms and legs moving, until she hits a beach. And then roll over and say "well, that was a workout, I might rest here 30 minutes and then go find out where I'm at".
Cringe
In theory from what Tolkien established, an Elf could swim, until they decided for whatever reason not to. They might give up after a period of time, but it would be a matter of willpower, not because their bodies gave out. Galadriel at that moment still desired to stay in Middle Earth, so she was probably up for a good year-long swim at least, before she considered that the tides might prevent her from returning to those shores.
We're talking about a race where even the lesser (like Legolas) considers walking on snow to be trivial. They're pretty much in harmony with nature, they can do things Men can't.
The biggest danger of the Sea isn't drowning, it's that you will desire to return to the West. She rejected that.
Posted on 9/2/22 at 12:41 pm to Roaad
I’ve pointed out other evidence in support of this.
Especially when you consider that are somewhat limited to the appendixes and Unfinished Tales for details abojt younger Galadriel.
Seems like you’re asking a lot.I don’t remember Tolkien listing every suit of armor ever worn by someone important when describing Rivendell.
That and Tolkien describing her as “of Amazon disposition” in Letter 348. He has used that term mostly to describe warrior women.
So that’s Tolkien on the matter. I am Not trying to Invalidate You interpretation, but there is support for this one.
Especially when you consider that are somewhat limited to the appendixes and Unfinished Tales for details abojt younger Galadriel.
quote:
A character as important as Galadriel, were she to have worn armor in battle, it would be on display as a relic of note. That's how big a deal that would be
Seems like you’re asking a lot.I don’t remember Tolkien listing every suit of armor ever worn by someone important when describing Rivendell.
quote:
So your contention is that in that single passage, it doesn't say she didn't. . .so she could have?
That and Tolkien describing her as “of Amazon disposition” in Letter 348. He has used that term mostly to describe warrior women.
So that’s Tolkien on the matter. I am Not trying to Invalidate You interpretation, but there is support for this one.
Posted on 9/2/22 at 12:42 pm to Scoob
She appeared to be swimming fast as hell with ease.
Posted on 9/2/22 at 12:45 pm to Scoob
I don’t think it helps that Elrond loses a battle of stamina in the same episode.
Posted on 9/2/22 at 12:45 pm to Scoob
You can’t have it both ways by having all of that understood, and then having that same character struggle to be helped out of the water by humans because she’s fatigued, dragged down to the depths to a certain death tied to a rope only to be saved by a man, and then your narrative about not sleeping is even taken down in the final scene as she wakes from a sleep, seemingly famished to some degree and squints to see some sort of man on a ship to close out the episode.
As I said before the ocean, swimming sequence is the main problem I’ve had with the show thus far and I stand by that. It’s dumb
As I said before the ocean, swimming sequence is the main problem I’ve had with the show thus far and I stand by that. It’s dumb
Posted on 9/2/22 at 12:46 pm to blueboy
quote:Uh, yeah?
So you're trying to expand the character of Elrond to now encompass Galadriel because - elves?
quote:Philosopher poet.
BTW, remind me of how Elrond is portrayed in the show.
How are Elves depicted in Tolkien's works? Magical, ethereal spirits, basically. A sense of wonderment and joy exuding from them. Frodo and Sam are literally intoxicated by meeting Gildor's group, remember?
Because they are Fairies, for all practical purposes.
Jackson made them more human in essence, probably to make them more relatable on screen.
But the initial concept is they are strange and wonderful, and hard to comprehend. Attaching a human limitation upon them is artificial.
Posted on 9/2/22 at 12:48 pm to SammyTiger
quote:
I don’t think it helps that Elrond loses a battle of stamina in the same episode.
But did he lose it, or did he "lose" it to make Prince Durin feel good about himself and open an opportunity to mend the relationship? I think that question is very much unanswered.
Posted on 9/2/22 at 12:50 pm to Roaad
quote:It's the exact same passage and argument made by Amazon's PR team months ago.
So your contention is that in that single passage,
Posted on 9/2/22 at 12:54 pm to Scoob
quote:Uh, well different characters do different things.
Uh, yeah?
Posted on 9/2/22 at 1:06 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:That's a good point, one I wondered about (and not in relation to Galadriel swimming).quote:
I don’t think it helps that Elrond loses a battle of stamina in the same episode.
But did he lose it, or did he "lose" it to make Prince Durin feel good about himself and open an opportunity to mend the relationship? I think that question is very much unanswered.
Elrond conceded to Durin, but not before putting on a good show (and pushing Durin to near exhaustion too).
The Dwarves came out to watch, so it was considered a noteworthy contest. The one falling asleep showed it went on awhile.
Durin got to show his people that he was great, in his own realm. Imagine being shown up by an Elf in Moria, in a Dwarvish contest... that would have been far worse an insult than what occurred in reality.
As Elrond said to Celebrimbor, let him work his craft.
Posted on 9/2/22 at 1:18 pm to blueboy
quote:Ok? Point remains Galadriel is a Noldor who came over from Valinor, their express purpose being to wage war (on Morgoth). They didn't come to sing in the woods.
Uh, well different characters do different things.
All the blissful, peaceful things that Elves can do and experience, they could do so in far greater levels in Valinor. Those who left, did so for martial purposes.
Those who were born in Middle Earth, that's more open for discussion. Legolas etc and the Silvan folk, they lingered because they loved their lands, but he was warned (by Galadriel) that if he saw hint of the Sea, he would then desire to leave and go West. Most of the Noldor eventually made the passage West, giving in to the desire to return. But Galadriel was proud and defiant, and kept going further East; until she finally at the end of the Third Age conceded and went back.
All of that suggests Galadriel wasn't yet in the mood to be idyllic at the feet of the Valar, she was still ready to fight.
Posted on 9/2/22 at 1:23 pm to Scoob
I don't know why y'all persist with this disingenuous argument. I think you know very well why they made her warrior Galadriel. It's not like this is fresh and new.
it's the same thing they've done in almost every other hijacked franchise.
Many people think it's unnecessary and stupid. Deal with it.
it's the same thing they've done in almost every other hijacked franchise.
Many people think it's unnecessary and stupid. Deal with it.
Posted on 9/2/22 at 1:28 pm to SammyTiger
quote:Same essay, Tolkein states that she never fought in the rebellion. She and Celeborn only showing up to fight Faenor.
That and Tolkien describing her as “of Amazon disposition” in Letter 348. He has used that term mostly to describe warrior women.
So that’s Tolkien on the matter. I am Not trying to Invalidate You interpretation, but there is support for this one.
Based only on what we KNOW about Galadriel, fighting Faenor was either:
A: Supporting and healing Celebor (we KNOW she is a great healer)
B: Politically fighting him in such a way (We have seen her do this many times)
C: Some sort of magic battle.
Deciding it had to be a melee fight on her part, is to assume something for which there is no evidence but is conceivable in a general sense.
The "I mean, but come on" logic
There is a sincerity to the argument, but no real merit without evidence.
quote:All their armor was described in great detail. Several times describing armor they USED to wear.
Seems like you’re asking a lot.I don’t remember Tolkien listing every suit of armor ever worn by someone important when describing Rivendell.
By the end of the third age, Galadriel is the most powerful, most celebrated of all the elves. If she had ever worn armor, or wielded a sword, it would be described for sure.
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