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re: The Last of Us | S1, Ep 9 Season Finale | NO GAME SPOILERS Thread
Posted on 3/13/23 at 9:03 pm to landrywasbeast30
Posted on 3/13/23 at 9:03 pm to landrywasbeast30
quote:
You win. He’s just a dude he loves murdering innocent people.
Got it.
You’re trolling.
0
Posted on 3/13/23 at 9:12 pm to Croacka
quote:
Could they not just create another Ellie?
Marlene had to put it together that Ellie was immune because her mother got bit.
They could sacrifice another pregnant woman to experiment. Just a thought, unless I’m missing something else.
I'm not convinced that the show meant to communicate that something about the way her mother died resulted in her immunity. I don't think it's much of a spoiler to say that this isn't addressed in the game at all. It's left a complete mystery. She's just immune. And she's the only living thing they've ever encountered that has this immunity. She is completely unique in this world.
Posted on 3/13/23 at 9:17 pm to Morgus
quote:
I'm not convinced that the show meant to communicate that something about the way her mother died resulted in her immunity. I don't think it's much of a spoiler to say that this isn't addressed in the game at all. It's left a complete mystery. She's just immune. And she's the only living thing they've ever encountered that has this immunity. She is completely unique in this world.
She very specifically (falsely) assured Marlene that it was cut before she was bit. Because the insinuation is they both know babies still on the cord can be infected via the mother. They were not super subtle about it.
I think Ellie was so briefly tainted that it was enough to inoculate but not grow uncontrollably.
Posted on 3/13/23 at 9:35 pm to Morgus
I think they were definitely throwing it out there as a possible explanation for her immunity. They didn’t say it outright, but it’s so obvious (with the focus on her immediately cutting the cord) that it’s hard for me to believe the writers hadn’t at least considered it when they were working on that flashback.
Posted on 3/14/23 at 12:14 am to BluegrassBelle
quote:
I guess there's the possibility, but I don't feel like there was given a strong indication that she knew she would have to die to possibly save humanity. And I don't know that she would have known the gravity of if she did agree to it. She is still a kid, even if fricked up by the apocalypse.
You’re right, there wasn’t strong indication. I guess I just see it from the fireflies perspective too. If they did force her or put her under without her knowing (as of now it’s impossible to say with certainty but I lean towards her ultimately not having a choice no matter what she wanted), then they were in the wrong. But which is the worst evil, the decision that could save an innumerable amount of people or the one where multiple people are killed to saves one?
Given the fact that I’ve had two brain surgeries, one without knowing I was having to have it and the other making the decision myself, I should relate to Ellie more. I will say, having your skull cracked open and screws being drilled in after to keep a titanium plate in there is one of the most painful things you can imagine
Then 8 years later knowing the pain but knowing you need to have another one is a tough decision. I wouldn’t wish it on anybody. Posted on 3/14/23 at 8:48 am to iwyLSUiwy
quote:
But which is the worst evil, the decision that could save an innumerable amount of people or the one where multiple people are killed to saves one?
From a purely utilitarian standpoint, just about any nonzero chance of success makes Ellie’s death worthwhile. Of course, that’s also what makes pure utilitarianism scary - you can justify all kinds of fricked up shite.
Joel’s argument isn’t really about traditional ethics, considering how many people he had to kill to save Ellie. But he never claimed to be a “good guy” either. It’s more about survival and protecting the people he cares about.
Posted on 3/14/23 at 9:09 am to lostinbr
Exactly. That’s been my whole point and the whole point of the show. This isn’t the Walking Dead. There are no heroes. Just survivors. Human beings that are capable of great love and also great atrocities, sometimes in the name of love, sometimes in the name of doing the right thing.
Neither Joel nor the Fireflies were right. But they weren’t wrong either. The Fireflies aren’t evil by wanting the very slim chance of creating a cure. And neither is Joel for doing everything he can to protect the last person in the world that he loves. That’s part of the reason Druckman created the game in the first place. He wanted you to be forced to think about both sides and sit with it and come to your own conclusions who is in the right and who is in the wrong and what would YOU do?
Neither Joel nor the Fireflies were right. But they weren’t wrong either. The Fireflies aren’t evil by wanting the very slim chance of creating a cure. And neither is Joel for doing everything he can to protect the last person in the world that he loves. That’s part of the reason Druckman created the game in the first place. He wanted you to be forced to think about both sides and sit with it and come to your own conclusions who is in the right and who is in the wrong and what would YOU do?
Posted on 3/14/23 at 9:21 am to BluegrassBelle
Couple things on the ep
1. Having them complete the surgery and go through the trouble of making sure it was in the pediatric wing would be a wild move.
2. People keep talking about Marlene may be a good person and Joel is not. Well, she promised her best friend to take care of her kid, but when we see Ellie’s backstory, she is in the FEDRA program. How would the leader of the firefly’s let the child she promised to protect go in with FEDRA? May have missed something so someone please let me know if so.
3. Insane move by the Firefly’s to just go all in with the brain surgery that will kill your one chance at a cure. At least try some blood related experiments first in case this method doesn’t work. And yes, I get it was said the disease infects the brain. Doesn’t mean you can’t try other options first.
1. Having them complete the surgery and go through the trouble of making sure it was in the pediatric wing would be a wild move.
2. People keep talking about Marlene may be a good person and Joel is not. Well, she promised her best friend to take care of her kid, but when we see Ellie’s backstory, she is in the FEDRA program. How would the leader of the firefly’s let the child she promised to protect go in with FEDRA? May have missed something so someone please let me know if so.
3. Insane move by the Firefly’s to just go all in with the brain surgery that will kill your one chance at a cure. At least try some blood related experiments first in case this method doesn’t work. And yes, I get it was said the disease infects the brain. Doesn’t mean you can’t try other options first.
Posted on 3/14/23 at 11:23 am to Kamara4Prez
quote:
2. People keep talking about Marlene may be a good person and Joel is not. Well, she promised her best friend to take care of her kid, but when we see Ellie’s backstory, she is in the FEDRA program. How would the leader of the firefly’s let the child she promised to protect go in with FEDRA? May have missed something so someone please let me know if so.
This was sort of addressed. I can’t remember when, but at one point Marlene says that she placed Ellie in FEDRA because it was the safest place for her to grow up in the QZ. To me, that part at least makes sense.
Going along with the decision to kill Ellie in search of a cure is a far greater betrayal.
Posted on 3/14/23 at 1:04 pm to lostinbr
quote:
Going along with the decision to kill Ellie in search of a cure is a far greater betrayal.
Why? She didn't raise Ellie. Ellie didn't even know who she was when they saw each other. Neither has any emotional ties to one another. After seeing what the world has become for 14 years, you tend to forget promises and do what you think is best for mankind.
Posted on 3/14/23 at 1:54 pm to lostinbr
quote:
From a purely utilitarian standpoint, just about any nonzero chance of success makes Ellie’s death worthwhile. Of course, that’s also what makes pure utilitarianism scary - you can justify all kinds of fricked up shite.
Joel’s argument isn’t really about traditional ethics, considering how many people he had to kill to save Ellie. But he never claimed to be a “good guy” either. It’s more about survival and protecting the people he cares about.
I know he isn't motivated by traditional ethics and I'm sure ethics in general have changed in the world they live in. And I know he doesn't see himself as a "good guy." But he is the main person you root for in the show, the character you like the most and one you sympathize with the most. So as a viewer you do see him a bit as the good guy. Seeing what he did and being ok with it is the viewer still seeing him as the good guy. He's a great character so he's easy to pull for. But personally, and speaking mainly about the final parts of this episode, I'm not going to defend all of his actions/say that his decision was the lesser of the two evils (again, even with something like killing the surgeon. he could have easily knocked him out and kept alive a BRAIN SURGEON). In this instance, I think what Marlene and the Fireflies were doing were the lesser of the two evils because it could potentially benefit more people instead of just Joel. Not liking the main characters decision over some minor characters is not a popular opinion, I get that.
Posted on 3/14/23 at 1:55 pm to LSUPERMAN
That show isn’t good
Posted on 3/14/23 at 2:01 pm to iwyLSUiwy
quote:
potentially
That’s the problem. Ellie could potentially die for nothing. If it was a 100% guarantee it worked, I can see the argument of the Fireflies being the lesser of two evils. But there was no guarantee it even worked or they even gained ANYTHING from her death.
Posted on 3/14/23 at 2:03 pm to Kamara4Prez
quote:
2. People keep talking about Marlene may be a good person and Joel is not. Well, she promised her best friend to take care of her kid, but when we see Ellie’s backstory, she is in the FEDRA program. How would the leader of the firefly’s let the child she promised to protect go in with FEDRA? May have missed something so someone please let me know if so.
I was viewing that part of FEDRA as more of a girls/boys home for kids without parents. Relatively speaking, it didn't seem like the worst place in the world. The guy in charge obviously was looking out for her to a certain degree. Marlene might not have been in a position to raise a baby.
quote:
3. Insane move by the Firefly’s to just go all in with the brain surgery that will kill your one chance at a cure. At least try some blood related experiments first in case this method doesn’t work. And yes, I get it was said the disease infects the brain. Doesn’t mean you can’t try other options first.
That's just TV for you. It's a 9 episode series with limited screen time. Maybe if they didn't use the 2nd longest episode of the season by 16 minutes as a filler episode, which will remain nameless, they could have spent more time on other things.
Posted on 3/14/23 at 2:13 pm to WicKed WayZ
quote:
Ellie could potentially die for nothing. If it was a 100% guarantee it worked, I can see the argument of the Fireflies being the lesser of two evils. But there was no guarantee it even worked or they even gained ANYTHING from her death.
After 20 years of destruction and countless deaths, I think they will risk or sacrifice anyone. How do you know it won't work unless you make the hard choices? If this was a 22 year old man, everyone would be all for it. Since it is a 14 year girl, all of you are standing on the moral high ground. I promise if you lived like they did, you would do anything to fight this.
Posted on 3/14/23 at 2:20 pm to LSUPERMAN
quote:
I think they will risk or sacrifice anyone.
quote:
all of you are standing on the moral high ground.
you literally complain about us standing on the “moral high ground” for wanting to rescue a 14 year old while literally saying the other side would do WHATEVER it takes and sacrifice anyone. Don’t you see that’s not exactly the lesser of two evils?
Posted on 3/14/23 at 2:28 pm to LSUPERMAN
quote:
I promise if you lived like they did, you would do anything to fight this.
And I promise you if I lived like Joel did I would go in there guns blazing to save Ellie
Posted on 3/14/23 at 2:30 pm to WicKed WayZ
A. I am not complaining.
2.
I am glad that you want to save a 14 year old girl who could possibly have the cure to save countless children from a fate worst then hers.
Thirdly. Both sides can't win. You have to choose the side that is looking for the betterment of the world. Is it the Fireflies? Probably not. You replace one dictatorship with another. Once people get into power, no matter how noble their cause is, become corrupt. But at least they have a plan, albeit, a ugly and risky one.
2.
quote:
us standing on the “moral high ground” for wanting to rescue a 14 year old
I am glad that you want to save a 14 year old girl who could possibly have the cure to save countless children from a fate worst then hers.
Thirdly. Both sides can't win. You have to choose the side that is looking for the betterment of the world. Is it the Fireflies? Probably not. You replace one dictatorship with another. Once people get into power, no matter how noble their cause is, become corrupt. But at least they have a plan, albeit, a ugly and risky one.
Posted on 3/14/23 at 3:34 pm to LSUPERMAN
quote:
I am glad that you want to save a 14 year old girl who could possibly have the cure to save countless children from a fate worst then hers.
Yeah I’m not willing to sacrifice a 14 year old on a possibility of helping others. If it was a 100% certainty, it’s a totally different story. But it’s a longshot and far from a certainty
Posted on 3/14/23 at 3:42 pm to LSUPERMAN
quote:
Why? She didn't raise Ellie. Ellie didn't even know who she was when they saw each other. Neither has any emotional ties to one another. After seeing what the world has become for 14 years, you tend to forget promises and do what you think is best for mankind.
It’s a betrayal of Ellie’s mother, who was Marlene’s lifelong friend and asked her to take care of Ellie. I thought that was obvious but I guess I should have clarified.
There was a reason they showed Marlene crying after telling Joel the news.
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