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Message
re: Least-Favorite Peter Jackson changes to Lord of the Rings
Posted on 10/3/19 at 1:58 pm to WicKed WayZ
Posted on 10/3/19 at 1:58 pm to WicKed WayZ
That woulda been awesome
1
Posted on 10/3/19 at 2:07 pm to Cow Drogo
Man, I haven’t read these books since middle school. May be time to pick them back up.
Posted on 10/3/19 at 2:18 pm to AggieHank86
I agree about the scouring of the Shire.
Another thing they left out that I was disappointed about was Halbarad and the Grey Company.
Another thing they left out that I was disappointed about was Halbarad and the Grey Company.
Posted on 10/3/19 at 2:26 pm to Upperdecker
On the other hand, one of my favorite changes was Gandalf bringing Eomer and the Rohirrim back to Helm's Deep instead of Erkenbrand.
Posted on 10/3/19 at 2:28 pm to Nobelium
quote:
the Barrow Downs, if only to explain how Eowyn was actually able to kill the Witch King.
This.
This post was edited on 10/3/19 at 2:29 pm
Posted on 10/3/19 at 2:35 pm to AggieHank86
Totally agree on leaving out the Scouring. Very disappointing.
I'll need to go back now and watch them for more thoughtful responses. I read LOTR about every couple of years or less. One of my favorite scenes is confrontation of Saruman at Orthanc and the dialogue portraying his subtility, pride, and rage. The "What is the House of Eorl...?" tirade is worth the price of the trilogy.
I'll need to go back now and watch them for more thoughtful responses. I read LOTR about every couple of years or less. One of my favorite scenes is confrontation of Saruman at Orthanc and the dialogue portraying his subtility, pride, and rage. The "What is the House of Eorl...?" tirade is worth the price of the trilogy.
Posted on 10/3/19 at 2:43 pm to TygerTyger
quote:
For me, Faramir bringing Frodo and Sam back to Minas Tirith, then letting them go after the Nazghul attack didn't make any sense. I'm still not sure what the point of that change was.
I had completely forgotten about that part. Just baffling.
Posted on 10/3/19 at 3:33 pm to AggieHank86
No. 1 has to be No Scouring of the Shire. I get it, but as an avid reader, I was left wanting.
I will say the Paths of the Dead and the "use" of the dead at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Bringing them into that battle detracted from the triumph of the Rohirrim and forces of Gondor (i.e., it made it appear that they could not have won without them).
I will say the Paths of the Dead and the "use" of the dead at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Bringing them into that battle detracted from the triumph of the Rohirrim and forces of Gondor (i.e., it made it appear that they could not have won without them).
Posted on 10/3/19 at 3:33 pm to TygerTyger
quote:
Doing the same with Rhadaghast the Brown was also stupid.
He was so over the top cheesy that it wouldn't have even fit in the Chris Columbus Harry Potter movies.
Posted on 10/3/19 at 3:55 pm to TygerTyger
quote:
Fellowship is a damned near perfect movie.
It is. I've seen it more than the other two and I have watched the extended edition of Fellowship multiple times. I have all three but have yet to make it through the extended editions of Two Towers or Return of the King.
The Fellowship of the Ring is damn near perfect no matter which cut of the film you watch.
Posted on 10/3/19 at 7:06 pm to AggieHank86
Removing one of the best dialogues in the entire book, “I am Saruman of many colors.” I’m a philosophy guy and a big Inklings fan, so this is a big deal for me.
Making Faramir a wuss.
Making Aragorn act like this angsty teen hesitant to accept his kingship.
These are the ones that bug me off the top of my head.
Making Faramir a wuss.
Making Aragorn act like this angsty teen hesitant to accept his kingship.
These are the ones that bug me off the top of my head.
Posted on 10/3/19 at 9:37 pm to RaginSaint43
Fellowship was the best of the trilogy, because he changed that the least.
Yes, he omitted Tom Bombadil, but I think he had to. That would have made the show much longer, or else cheapened the scene too much.
Similarly, the Conspiracy was drastically shortened, but they had to do that in order to get things rolling.
In other words, he edited things out for time.
Starting in Two Towers, he begins seriously changing things, and it fundamentally alters the characters.
1) He flip-flops Gandalf and Theoden about Helm's Deep; in the book Theoden wants to ride out and meet Saruman's forces on the plains, in open battle. Gandalf tells him he can't win, and his people will suffer because of that.
In the movies, Gandalf tells him to ride out to battle, and Theoden says no, we will hole up in Helm's Deep.
*this changes Theoden from an aggressive, revived warrior king who honors Gandalf's wisdom, to a bit of a curmudgeon who doesn't take advice*
2) Faramir waffling in the movie about Frodo and the Ring... in the book, he senses Frodo's burden and steers the conversation away while around others. Then, in the cave, he deduces the actual quest, and the Ring, and instantly and completely recognizes the danger, and rejects the Ring without hesitation.
*Book Faramir is the contrast to Boromir, gentler and more learned, but with more wisdom and foresight. He is the TRUE Numenorean, not Boromir, who is the product of the dilution with regular men. This also lessens the Ring significantly- Faramir recognizes that even entertaining a claim to it, hopelessly dooms you (as it did Boromir).
3) Elves at Helm's Deep...
I guess the Last Alliance wasn't the last alliance afterall...
2 huge issues with Return of the King, for me.
First, Aragorn commanding the Dead into battle... that changes his character completely.
Book- Legolas remarks that Sauron was wise to fear Aragorn, upon seeing him take command of the Dead. He could see his force of will, and the power he could wield with the Ring. But Gandalf points out that Sauron has a flaw- he's incapable of understanding that Aragorn WOULD NOT use the tools of the Enemy (like the Dead), even against the Enemy- and it makes him blind to Aragorn's true purpose.
In other words, Aragorn acts like Sauron would expect him to, in the movie. In the book, he doesn't. Sauron wins when he understands what people would do, he only loses when people act out of goodness and virtue.
The other issue, is Denethor. Movie Denethor is sniveling. Book Denethor is wise and great, proud and dignified... but embittered by the impending defeat.
Book Denethor, I think, really is touched by Pippin's innocence and frivolousness. When Pippin says "I don't know any songs worthy of the halls of Gondor", I think it breaks his somber mood, and he's serious when he tells him to sing, they need to be reminded of the peoples he protects by being on the front line. That's why Gandalf was ultimately pleased with Pippin's presence there, he eased the man's pain for awhile. In the movie, it's more like tormenting Pippin for the sake of it.
Yes, he omitted Tom Bombadil, but I think he had to. That would have made the show much longer, or else cheapened the scene too much.
Similarly, the Conspiracy was drastically shortened, but they had to do that in order to get things rolling.
In other words, he edited things out for time.
Starting in Two Towers, he begins seriously changing things, and it fundamentally alters the characters.
1) He flip-flops Gandalf and Theoden about Helm's Deep; in the book Theoden wants to ride out and meet Saruman's forces on the plains, in open battle. Gandalf tells him he can't win, and his people will suffer because of that.
In the movies, Gandalf tells him to ride out to battle, and Theoden says no, we will hole up in Helm's Deep.
*this changes Theoden from an aggressive, revived warrior king who honors Gandalf's wisdom, to a bit of a curmudgeon who doesn't take advice*
2) Faramir waffling in the movie about Frodo and the Ring... in the book, he senses Frodo's burden and steers the conversation away while around others. Then, in the cave, he deduces the actual quest, and the Ring, and instantly and completely recognizes the danger, and rejects the Ring without hesitation.
*Book Faramir is the contrast to Boromir, gentler and more learned, but with more wisdom and foresight. He is the TRUE Numenorean, not Boromir, who is the product of the dilution with regular men. This also lessens the Ring significantly- Faramir recognizes that even entertaining a claim to it, hopelessly dooms you (as it did Boromir).
3) Elves at Helm's Deep...
I guess the Last Alliance wasn't the last alliance afterall...
2 huge issues with Return of the King, for me.
First, Aragorn commanding the Dead into battle... that changes his character completely.
Book- Legolas remarks that Sauron was wise to fear Aragorn, upon seeing him take command of the Dead. He could see his force of will, and the power he could wield with the Ring. But Gandalf points out that Sauron has a flaw- he's incapable of understanding that Aragorn WOULD NOT use the tools of the Enemy (like the Dead), even against the Enemy- and it makes him blind to Aragorn's true purpose.
In other words, Aragorn acts like Sauron would expect him to, in the movie. In the book, he doesn't. Sauron wins when he understands what people would do, he only loses when people act out of goodness and virtue.
The other issue, is Denethor. Movie Denethor is sniveling. Book Denethor is wise and great, proud and dignified... but embittered by the impending defeat.
Book Denethor, I think, really is touched by Pippin's innocence and frivolousness. When Pippin says "I don't know any songs worthy of the halls of Gondor", I think it breaks his somber mood, and he's serious when he tells him to sing, they need to be reminded of the peoples he protects by being on the front line. That's why Gandalf was ultimately pleased with Pippin's presence there, he eased the man's pain for awhile. In the movie, it's more like tormenting Pippin for the sake of it.
Posted on 10/3/19 at 9:46 pm to Scoob
Agree with everything you said. I had forgotten about the changes to Faramir’s character. That definitely moves up to my number one spot. They butchered him for no good reason at all.
Posted on 10/3/19 at 9:58 pm to TheTideMustRoll
I need to reread.
Posted on 10/3/19 at 10:17 pm to Scoob
Very nice breakdown. Can't argue with any of that.
Posted on 10/4/19 at 5:01 am to TygerTyger
quote:
Fellowship is a damned near perfect movie. Towers and Return get slightly more silly and CGI'ey. You could tell Jackson was losing sight of the feel and message of the novels and making more "audience inclusive" films.
Given the unique nature of how the films were developed, I feel like that perception is 100% in your head rather than reality.
Principal photography for all three films were shot before the first film released, all in one go. There were minor reshoots, but that wouldn’t have involved a change in vision from how heavy CGI was used.
Posted on 10/4/19 at 10:12 am to TheTideMustRoll
quote:PJ wanted to do the battle scene on Osgiliath, for visual impact. And he threw in Sam's 4th Wall bit about "we shouldn't even be here"...
Agree with everything you said. I had forgotten about the changes to Faramir’s character. That definitely moves up to my number one spot. They butchered him for no good reason at all.
But that's wrong on so many levels.
Faramir wanted the Ring. Based on all lore and canon, that's it for him. The slightest desire, for any purpose, is all the Ring needs to take over. That's what destroyed Boromir. The only character who ever resists it (besides Bombadil), is Sam- Sam takes and uses it, but out of necessity, not desire. And he alone freely gives it up, as he gave it back to Frodo afterwards. Faramir would not have changed his mind, once he started on that path. He could not, the Ring wouldn't allow him to.
So that scene both cheapens the Ring's power, and lessens Faramir's virtue.
Also- the Nazgul sees Frodo. Just... game over. Any battle plans become irrelevant, their primary mission is to seize Frodo and the Ring. It wouldn't be one just flapping there, all 9 would descend on him immediately.
Posted on 10/4/19 at 1:02 pm to Scoob
Well, it turns out that after rereading your post I do have issue with one thing you said. Your first point regarding Return of the King, that Aragorn never commands the Army of the Dead in battle in the books, is incorrect. He just do so “off-camera,” if you will. He uses the Dead to defeat the Corsairs and seize their fleet. In fact, the Dead had to fight for him at least once in order to fulfill their oath. However, the remainder of the conclusion that you draw is still valid, because Aragorn was under no obligation to release them from their service at that point and could have forced them to follow him to Gondor if he had chosen to do so.
Posted on 10/4/19 at 1:23 pm to TygerTyger
quote:The actual line is even better: If you want him, come and claim him.
I hated that at first, but I've come to be OK with it. Liv Tyler is hot, a decent actress, and her "If you want him, come and take him" line is pretty damn good.
I always thought that was the hottest shite.
Posted on 10/4/19 at 1:26 pm to SpqrTiger
Having the Dain riding a pig and being a silly Leprechaun shows how Jackson never understood how to film the stoic Dwarves
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