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Message
Does Disney Marvel have the critic world on payroll?
Posted on 10/28/18 at 9:57 am
Posted on 10/28/18 at 9:57 am
After leaving Venom last night, I kind of started wondering what the hell is going on with these movies and their ratings. Venom started a little clunky but was a damn good film and had an incredibly entertaining last 45 minutes or so better than any formulaic Marvel origin story outside of Doctor Strange or Guardians.
I know rottentomatoes does not factor in how much a critic liked or disliked the movie before people come running in. It is however the single biggest site when it comes to people checking to see what the critics are saying and has an impact. You can go ahead and throw rotten tomatoes into this question as well.
Im also going to say that the critics are going to protect their own self interests and more often than not Disney Marvel does an incredible job with their movies. From a page clicks perspective though, it behooves critics to stick their eggs in that basket and not kick the nest. Let’s look at some of the weaker MCU movies and compare them to some of the better Sony Marvel / DC movies going by Audience Score.
Perspective MCU
Iron Man 3 - 80% / Audience 78%
Ed Norton Hulk - 67% / Audience 71%
Thor: The Dark World - 66% / Audience 76%
Iron Man 2 - 73% / Audience 71%
Ant Man and The Wasp - 88% / Audience 79%
Perspective Sony Marvel / DC
Venom (Sony Marvel) - 30% / Audience 87%
Justice League (DC) - 41% / Audience 74%
Man of Steel (DC) - 55% / Audience 75%
Spider-Man - 90% / Audience 67%
Note: Tobey’s Spider Man is by far the oldest movie on these lists clocking in a full 6 years before any of the others. I didn’t want to be accused of being biased, but it really doesn’t belong here.
Let’s stack up the “cream of the crop” for funsies. I’m not going to include Black Panther or Wonder Woman for racial and genders reasons to be fair.
MCU (critics/Audience)
Iron Man - 93/91
Avengers - 92/91
Winter Soldier - 89/92
Guardians - 91/92
Infinity War - 84/91
Civil War - 91/89
Strange - 89/86
Ragnorok - 92/87
Homecoming - 92/88
Sony/DC
Batman Begins - 84/94
The Dark Knight - 94/94
TDKR - 87/90
Uhhhhh...
I’m not even going to get into the argument about critics shaping the audience narrative as well. I think there’s a case to be made, but I’d prefer to leave just the numbers.
I know rottentomatoes does not factor in how much a critic liked or disliked the movie before people come running in. It is however the single biggest site when it comes to people checking to see what the critics are saying and has an impact. You can go ahead and throw rotten tomatoes into this question as well.
Im also going to say that the critics are going to protect their own self interests and more often than not Disney Marvel does an incredible job with their movies. From a page clicks perspective though, it behooves critics to stick their eggs in that basket and not kick the nest. Let’s look at some of the weaker MCU movies and compare them to some of the better Sony Marvel / DC movies going by Audience Score.
Perspective MCU
Iron Man 3 - 80% / Audience 78%
Ed Norton Hulk - 67% / Audience 71%
Thor: The Dark World - 66% / Audience 76%
Iron Man 2 - 73% / Audience 71%
Ant Man and The Wasp - 88% / Audience 79%
Perspective Sony Marvel / DC
Venom (Sony Marvel) - 30% / Audience 87%
Justice League (DC) - 41% / Audience 74%
Man of Steel (DC) - 55% / Audience 75%
Spider-Man - 90% / Audience 67%
Note: Tobey’s Spider Man is by far the oldest movie on these lists clocking in a full 6 years before any of the others. I didn’t want to be accused of being biased, but it really doesn’t belong here.
Let’s stack up the “cream of the crop” for funsies. I’m not going to include Black Panther or Wonder Woman for racial and genders reasons to be fair.
MCU (critics/Audience)
Iron Man - 93/91
Avengers - 92/91
Winter Soldier - 89/92
Guardians - 91/92
Infinity War - 84/91
Civil War - 91/89
Strange - 89/86
Ragnorok - 92/87
Homecoming - 92/88
Sony/DC
Batman Begins - 84/94
The Dark Knight - 94/94
TDKR - 87/90
Uhhhhh...
I’m not even going to get into the argument about critics shaping the audience narrative as well. I think there’s a case to be made, but I’d prefer to leave just the numbers.
17
Posted on 10/28/18 at 10:00 am to ShamelessPel
This should be good 
Posted on 10/28/18 at 10:01 am to ShamelessPel
I tried reading all that and not sure if you think ratings should be higher or lower
Posted on 10/28/18 at 10:04 am to kciDAtaE
What I think isn’t really the point. It’s how the critics “think” vs how the audiences think.
Posted on 10/28/18 at 10:05 am to ShamelessPel
I feel like I remember a story a few years ago about marvel paying off critics. Wouldn’t be suprised if that’s true, but I can also buy an argument that says marvel is simply better at exploiting people’s anchoring bias.
Marvel does a great job hyping up their films before release, gotta give them credit for that. When critics go into a film excited, they're more likely to give positive reviews. When they go in apprehensive, more likely to give negative ones. Marvel does a great job generating that front-end excitement, and I’d guess that factors into a systematic skewing of their reviews.
Marvel does a great job hyping up their films before release, gotta give them credit for that. When critics go into a film excited, they're more likely to give positive reviews. When they go in apprehensive, more likely to give negative ones. Marvel does a great job generating that front-end excitement, and I’d guess that factors into a systematic skewing of their reviews.
Posted on 10/28/18 at 10:18 am to ShamelessPel
Couldn't the argument be made that instead of saying one is biased over the others, that Marvel has found a relatively successful formula that satisfies both audiences and critics, while other production studios have?
Ehhhh, no.
I still do want to see Venom, but I've heard too many bad things from fans of Venom.
In terms of JL and MoS, the whole problem with those films is Superman. Particularly Snyder's take. It was completely divisive for the most important comic book character at the time.
And Spider-Man doesn't fit your narrative necessarily.
Your argument relies on there being two groups of people who have different needs, Critic and Audience, and one being biased to affect the other. When it comes to art, it's much more complex than that as evidenced by Spider-Man, TDKR, MOS, etc. If you want a clear data driven picture you'd need to 1) Include a breakdown of every comic book film, and 2) compare that against the normal deviation of other films, and possibly other "combative" properties. Like Star Wars and Star Trek or something.
You can't put incomplete stats out there and say "Poof, bias." You left off Suicide Squad and BvS for a reason.
quote:
compare them to some of the better Sony Marvel / DC movies going by Audience Score.
quote:
Venom (Sony Marvel) - 30% / Audience 87%
Justice League (DC) - 41% / Audience 74%
Man of Steel (DC) - 55% / Audience 75%
Spider-Man - 90% / Audience 67%
Ehhhh, no.
I still do want to see Venom, but I've heard too many bad things from fans of Venom.
In terms of JL and MoS, the whole problem with those films is Superman. Particularly Snyder's take. It was completely divisive for the most important comic book character at the time.
And Spider-Man doesn't fit your narrative necessarily.
Your argument relies on there being two groups of people who have different needs, Critic and Audience, and one being biased to affect the other. When it comes to art, it's much more complex than that as evidenced by Spider-Man, TDKR, MOS, etc. If you want a clear data driven picture you'd need to 1) Include a breakdown of every comic book film, and 2) compare that against the normal deviation of other films, and possibly other "combative" properties. Like Star Wars and Star Trek or something.
You can't put incomplete stats out there and say "Poof, bias." You left off Suicide Squad and BvS for a reason.
This post was edited on 10/28/18 at 10:22 am
Posted on 10/28/18 at 10:23 am to ShamelessPel
The MCU is fine e but it really is a boring. Just doesn't feel like they have life or emotion in those movies.
Outside of Winter Soldier and Spider Man: Homecoming all the movies feel the same.
Outside of Winter Soldier and Spider Man: Homecoming all the movies feel the same.
This post was edited on 10/28/18 at 10:26 am
Posted on 10/28/18 at 10:30 am to Freauxzen
I’d argue finding a formula and sticking to it is lazy and should not be rewarded critically. That’s not art. That’s pandering. I’m not calling out the MCU for their movies. I enjoy them on a whole. Some of them deserve all the critical recognition they get and are damn good films. It’s the ones that follow the formula you speak of and fall flat on their arse that I’m referring to. How do you frick up a movie with Sam Rockwell, Mickey Rourke, and Robert Downey? Take some risks. shite.
I, like you, avoided Venom even though Tom Hardy is my favorite actor in the world right now because of the below average previews and critical reception. I barely caught it before it left theaters.
I, like you, avoided Venom even though Tom Hardy is my favorite actor in the world right now because of the below average previews and critical reception. I barely caught it before it left theaters.
Posted on 10/28/18 at 10:32 am to Freauxzen
quote:
You can't put incomplete stats out there and say "Poof, bias." You left off Suicide Squad and BvS for a reason
Obviously I left them off for a reason and it’s because the audience hated those movies as much as the critics. That doesn’t have any bearing on me pointing out the discrepancy between how the audience feels and how the critics rate.
Posted on 10/28/18 at 10:34 am to ShamelessPel
quote:
I’d argue finding a formula and sticking to it is lazy and should not be rewarded critically. That’s not art. That’s pandering. I’m not calling out the MCU for their movies. I enjoy them on a whole.
They just make me feel nothing. Even as a City of Heroes addict.
The movies aren't bad but very forgettable.
Posted on 10/28/18 at 10:40 am to ShamelessPel
quote:
I’d argue finding a formula and sticking to it is lazy and should not be rewarded critically. That’s not art.
Most artists have "formulas." Like Christopher Nolan and his trilogy. Spielberg films are remarkably similar in how their narratives play out. Some fo the most successful actors around are successful because they have a "formula" that they stick to.
Formula isn't a bad word in art.
quote:
It’s the ones that follow the formula you speak of and fall flat on their arse that I’m referring to.
Nope, see here:
quote:
Let’s look at some of the weaker MCU movies
quote:
Iron Man 3 - 80% / Audience 78%
Ed Norton Hulk - 67% / Audience 71%
Thor: The Dark World - 66% / Audience 76%
Iron Man 2 - 73% / Audience 71%
Ant Man and The Wasp - 88% / Audience 79%
You called these films weaker, yet most of these films are those films that do buck the formula. Particularly TDW and IM3.
And when I say formula, I don't mean that the films are built from the same premise, just that the MCU have found a tone, a style, and characters that work and put them all together in way that does hit on the same beats.
You know what else is formulaic? The comic book. I'm not talking about your East of West's or Sandmans. But the comic books ALL of these movies are made off of are about heroes and teams of heroes fighting the same villains with the world at stake for 50+ years. Think about that.
quote:
Take some risks. shite.
The MCU is a risk, and has been all along.
quote:
I, like you, avoided Venom even though Tom Hardy is my favorite actor in the world right now because of the below average previews and critical reception. I barely caught it before it left theaters.
Yeah but my avoidance has nothing to do with critics and everything to do with people who like Venom the character.
Posted on 10/28/18 at 10:46 am to ShamelessPel
quote:
Obviously I left them off for a reason and it’s because the audience hated those movies as much as the critics. That doesn’t have any bearing on me pointing out the discrepancy between how the audience feels and how the critics rate.
I disagree. You're pointing specifically to what you call "Weaker" MCU films, only in your opinion, that get decent reviews and comparing that against weaker reviewed non-MCU films as proof of some sort of conspiracy or bias.
Basically saying that your assessment, or the audience's assessment of IM3 is the correct one, and that the critic review is biased. And that the critics are wrong about MoS, while the audience is correct. Without acknowledging that especially around here Man of Steel is the probably the most infamous film on this board and created division like no movie before it or since (only Drive came anywhere close, and was still not in the same zip code). There's a reason, and it isn't bias. And 2 of those 4 films have that character that drove such division in them. The ratings on those and the reaction to the film say way more than collected ratings honestly.
Posted on 10/28/18 at 10:49 am to ShamelessPel
quote:
I’m not even going to get into the argument about critics shaping the audience narrative as well.
Not much of an argument needed. As soon as a couple of bad reviews are out, people rush to social media to warn their friends and followers away from the movie. Hell, you don't need an actual review. Just takes one rumor to start the "this movie is going to be a mess" train.
Venom wasn't great by any means, but it had a great cast with fairly strong performances across the board. It was entertaining with some well placed humorous moments. All that it took was a couple of click-seeking critics placing it with Catwoman and Michael B. Jordan's Fantastic 4 for people to dismiss it as a trainwreck.
We live in an age where people can't wait to spread bad news or attempt to take something or someone down.
Posted on 10/28/18 at 10:59 am to Freauxzen
quote:
I disagree. You're pointing specifically to what you call "Weaker" MCU films, only in your opinion, that get decent reviews and comparing that against weaker reviewed non-MCU films as proof of some sort of conspiracy or bias.
Dude this is going way over your head.
They are the weaker films according to both critics and the audience.
The non MCU films are the stronger non MCU films according to the audience but not the critics.
ETA: there is nothing to point to critically under the Sony/DC umbrella that isn’t Nolan or WW. I can’t help that.
This post was edited on 10/28/18 at 11:06 am
Posted on 10/28/18 at 11:12 am to ShamelessPel
If you're wondering whether Disney pays critics just look at The Last Jedi.
Posted on 10/28/18 at 11:37 am to ShamelessPel
Critics are out of touch most of the time in regards to the tomato meter. Almost always go with the audience score.
Hell go look at The Last Jedi and the disparity there. It’s laughable. Most audience scores are relatively high for the truly great MCU flicks though and hover in the 70’s for the solid/just OK ones like Black Panther.
Hell go look at The Last Jedi and the disparity there. It’s laughable. Most audience scores are relatively high for the truly great MCU flicks though and hover in the 70’s for the solid/just OK ones like Black Panther.
Posted on 10/28/18 at 12:00 pm to ShamelessPel
quote:
Dude this is going way over your head.
They are the weaker films according to both critics and the audience.
The non MCU films are the stronger non MCU films according to the audience but not the critics.
The only non-MCU film that could be considered "Stronger" than the "weak" MCU films based on audience scores is Venom. The rest are too close to be statistically significant.
Plus, Audience score is users who rate a film 3.5/5. So the film has to be considered slightly above average. by some portion of people. That's it. Think about that. That means Don't Mess with the Zohan still gets a 45% Audience Score. The Blind Side has an 85%. Transformers, over 80%. The Bucket List 75%. I am Sam 74%. And so forth.
The critic score never tells the story. The audience score never tells the story, honestly if I go by anything it's the difference between the two.
Posted on 10/28/18 at 12:01 pm to WicKed WayZ
quote:
Hell go look at The Last Jedi and the disparity there. It’s laughable.
To me, this was the Man of Steel problem x1000. Don't mess with the core conceits of a franchise/property. Interestingly enough, with SW, they did it in a way that made it difficult to argue against, rather than just offending the characters.
This post was edited on 10/28/18 at 12:02 pm
Posted on 10/28/18 at 1:32 pm to ShamelessPel
I don't think they're on the payroll, but I think critics love Disney in general because of the diversity in their programming. I have no idea if that affects Marvel's rotten tomato ratings. I suppose it's possible.
With that being said, the critics really love Deadpool and Wonder Woman, which are not Disney. And in fairness, DC has put out some stinkers as has Sony. Say what you want about Marvel/Disney, but people love their movies. I personally thought Infinity War was one of the best comic movies ever made. So it's not that big of a stretch to think they just like the MCU overall.
I have not seen Venom, but I've seen a ton of people say it was not good.
With that being said, the critics really love Deadpool and Wonder Woman, which are not Disney. And in fairness, DC has put out some stinkers as has Sony. Say what you want about Marvel/Disney, but people love their movies. I personally thought Infinity War was one of the best comic movies ever made. So it's not that big of a stretch to think they just like the MCU overall.
I have not seen Venom, but I've seen a ton of people say it was not good.
This post was edited on 10/28/18 at 1:37 pm
Posted on 10/28/18 at 2:09 pm to abellsujr
quote:
I have not seen Venom, but I've seen a ton of people say it was not good.
It's pretty bad.
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