re: Captain America: Civil War ***SPOILERS*** and Review Thread

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All he had to do is say "hey tony blah blah blah these people are doing this" Tony "Shut up Cap" Cap, "Tony here is evidence, look in to it right now"

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Because that works prior to/during a kill on sight order? Cap's action had to reflect the situation presented to him. He couldn't be patient when people were out for blood.

And Cap tries to tell Tony whats going on on the Tarmac. Tony wants to bring them in regardless.

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I just think there are some really unique perspectives around this entire issue.

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Agreed. Really speaks to the quality of the movie that so many people can come away with so many different views.

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I just can't understand those who think it's just better to stay home and not save anyone at all. It's better for them to retire. I mean, that's essentially what people are arguing for. Let New York happen I guess?

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I don't get it either. I also don't get the "oversight" angle either. The only way that "oversight" would have helped would be if they would have been able to stop Tony from creating Ultron. Tony knew that, that's why he kept it secret from the rest of team besides Banner. That's also why he went in all in with the accords after being confronted by the mother of a Sokovia casualty. Guilt.

As for repercussions? What are they proposing? Lock them up if they fail to insure zero casualties every time they take the field? Are we gonna start prosecuting fire fighters when they fail to save every single person from the burning building as well?

As far as the "governing panel", has everyone forgotten that the World Council launched a nuke at NYC in response to the Chitauri? Do we think there would have been fewer casualties from that? The Avengers didn't just save us from the Chitauri, they saved us from ourselves.

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As far as the "governing panel", has everyone forgotten that the World Council launched a nuke at NYC in response to the Chitauri?

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You mean that World Council that had two Hydra members on it? That's the kind of governing panel you want controlling the Avengers?

What has Cap done to not trust his sole judgement? Every Avenger is on his side, except Tony, his best friend who's an idiot that trusted Justin Hammer, and Vision, who Tony created from Jarvis, which he created.

The only people that oppose things Cap says, more often than not are bad guys. He has won over just about every person he's ever been in front of.

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What are you suggesting he take repercussions for?

Sokovia? He did his level best to save as many people as they could from Tony's mess.

New York? What part of that do you hold him responsible for?

DC? He literally saved 3 million lives by taking down those Helicarriers.

Lagos? Do we hold soldiers accountable for every successful suicide bomber? How many would have died if Crossbones had gotten away with the biological weapon?

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not that you and i interact often, but i find it funny that i'm 100% with you lock and step on this thread, but disagree with you everywhere else. mainly politically.

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they absolutely needed to be provided with some oversight and governmental transparency

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Is this the kind of "governmental transparency" you had in mind?

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Steve Rogers: [upon arrest] What about a lawyer?

Everett K. Ross: Lawyer, that's funny.

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Steve put it perfectly when he said:

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Lt. Col. James Rhodes: Sorry, Steve, that... that is dangerously arrogant. This is the United Nations we're talking about. It's not the World Security Council, it's not S.H.I.E.L.D., it's not Hydra.

Steve Rogers: No, but it's run by people with agendas and agendas change.

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Steve Rogers: [upon arrest] What about a lawyer?

Everett K. Ross: Lawyer, that's funny.

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sure, that's a breach of civil rights and it happens IRL unfortunately

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Steve Rogers: No, but it's run by people with agendas and agendas change

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how is that only limited to the government? What if 100 years down the road Steve all of a sudden has a change of heart? I understand that will never happen, but how do they know that? All they see is a vigilante who is running wild, whose organization is the direct cause of what happened in sokovia.

I mean I get the point, but it's so complicated (as much as superheroes would be cool to see exist, the legality behind it all is so problematic).

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i think the point of the whole accord is to provide accountability and authority.

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Ok so accountability is in place....what changes?

And authority from whom? Are we to say the person in charge is perfect? And if not, then what's the point anyway?

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yes, there will be times where the system wouldnt work as in everyday life. but how would you feel if tomorrow, it was reported that the FBI had to answer to absolutely no one and they were given full autonomy to do whatever they wanted whenever they wanted?

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If the FBI wasn't a part of the government, was honestly doing good work (however you determine that), and had a public face, I don't know, maybe I'd be ok with it.

But no, I wouldn't want the FBI to have carte blanche as is (And let's be honest, our government, or any government for that matter, is not accountable for anything right now anyways. Except for a media controlled public opinion.)

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the point is that the avengers are a rouge group of enhanced people who act without authority and disregard international sovereignty. thats monumental. just because they ultimately want to do the right thing and save the world, it doesnt make their methods any different from the people they are trying to stop and they absolutely needed to be provided with some oversight and governmental transparency

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But they are dealing with threats that no government would be equipped to handle, and frankly, if we put ourselves in that world, all bets are seemingly off.

And again, Cap DID in fact see the light. He was in fact going to sign "with conditions," which I would best view as some kind of Independent, International Panel, not the UN, not any governmental body. That would be an ok start by me.

Oversight isn't necessarily bad for them, Vision is right, but the UN is not the place to get that from. Any centralized government should be suspect.

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I think it's funny that we're having philosophical discourse on a comic book movie though. it does make for some good discussion right vs wrong and on the role of government and its oversight.

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I think it's also interesting to put yourself in that world. If you have a world, facing a threat like Loki, I'm not sure I'd want the UN making decisions. Does anyone really think that?

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Hell no. I'd rather sick the Outdoor board on it.

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Well played.

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And authority from whom?

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the international community?

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Are we to say the person in charge is perfect?

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of course not, no one is perfect. still doesnt mean its a much better system

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And if not, then what's the point anyway?

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legality mostly. we have institutions put in place for fighting crime and dealing with threats and they are given the power to do so from the governments of the world. i dont see why the avengers should be exempt

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If the FBI wasn't a part of the government, was honestly doing good work (however you determine that), and had a public face, I don't know, maybe I'd be ok with it.

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but thats the thing. how would we know for sure that they were doing the right thing if there wasnt any oversight or transparency?

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But they are dealing with threats that no government would be equipped to handle, and frankly, if we put ourselves in that world, all bets are seemingly off.

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and they should ultimately be held to dealing with those type of threats if they want to keep going around governmental institutions. why should they respond to a terrorist threat, when they dont have any legal authority to do so, over any single countries own anti terrorist group/agency?

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And again, Cap DID in fact see the light. He was in fact going to sign "with conditions," which I would best view as some kind of Independent, International Panel, not the UN, not any governmental body. That would be an ok start by me.

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but he ultimately didnt because he didnt like how it would reign the avengers in. and i do agree that, at least in their universe, having their own international panel that answered to the UN would probably be the best way to go about it instead of the UN actually providing the oversight