- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
re: Captain America: Civil War ***SPOILERS*** and Review Thread
Posted on 5/16/16 at 2:30 pm to Freauxzen
Posted on 5/16/16 at 2:30 pm to Freauxzen
quote:He wants to make all decisions for the Avengers.
Cap wanted 100% control and that is a dictatorship.
Cap wanted his own government?
quote:I totally understand what you and he were pushing. I just felt his whole rebel attitude was childish without trying to talk reason to Tony.
Cap believes in individuals, that doesn't shift the blame, and it doesn't mean he wants controls. He wants people to make up their own minds.
"What if they send us somewhere we shouldn't? And what if they don't send us somewhere we should?"
I mean, if you want to extrapolate this out to full fledged political discussion: Can 10 or so people in a room who really have no idea who someone like Loki is or what he is capable of, be trusted to make a decision to act? Let's say there's a government body in place before the New York incident? Let's say it takes them 12 hours to make a decision on whether or not to protect New York or to quarantine it. What then?
And why did Cap take blame and the repercussions for all the innocents killed in the other battles?
quote:Vision said it best. And the one part Cap overlooks. Oversight.
I'm saying there may be a causality. Our very strength invites challenge. Challenge incites conflict. And conflict... breeds catastrophe. Oversight... Oversight is not an idea that can be dismissed out of hand.
2
Posted on 5/16/16 at 2:31 pm to CarRamrod
quote:
What i am saying Cap wasnt 100% wright or wrong, but neither was Tony. Their viewpoints both had merit(on purpose not to sway one side ad being a bad side).
Meh, you did use some pretty strong language though:
quote:
But damn, Cap just wanted to do whatever he wanted with no repercussions. Tony said it best when he compared it is the exact thing as the bad guys.
quote:
It is proven Cap doesnt always make the right choices, helping out Bucky just because he is his friend.
quote:
Cap wanted 100% control and that is a dictatorship.
They are both right, that's why Cap's solution is best. They need one team to be the public facing team, owned by Tony. And one team that people can trust to do the right thing. That way things can get done, regardless of politics. The problem with the Avengers was their public face. People HAD someone to blame.
Posted on 5/16/16 at 2:33 pm to CarRamrod
quote:
What i am saying Cap wasnt 100% wright or wrong, but neither was Tony. Their viewpoints both had merit(on purpose not to sway one side ad being a bad side).
Tony basically told Cap that he'd rather trust Ross and the UN to tell them what to do instead of Cap. And Cap doesn't mind the checks and balances, but it's not going to come from politicians that have other motives for their actions.
What in the past gives anyone the belief that trusting in Ross and the UN is better than trusting in Cap to do the right thing.
Tony just doens't want to to carry the blame when innocent people die, b/c he's not a super hero. He wants to be able to say, "well ma'am i just met at this conference, your son died b/c General Ross told us to do that, so go cry to him"
What they should have done to further show Cap's side is have that mom go tell the same sob story to him and hear his response opposed to Tony's.
I don't know what Cap would have said specifically, but he likely would have apologized and honored the kid in some way to make the mom feel slightly better about losing her son. She would have left loving Cap, as opposed to still hating Tony like she did.
Posted on 5/16/16 at 2:34 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
How some people don't see Bucky as a mere device for evil in all of this is beyond me. He is not in control of what he's doing, and he doesn't know how to prevent himself from being controlled. How is that his fault? Bucky is not a bad guy. You can argue that Hulk is much worse than he is.
quote:Right. Bucky cant control it..... well time to solve the problem and make a self sacrifice. Hell Banner tried to but he cant. I dont know where he said it but i believe he said "I tried to eat a bullet and the other guy spit it out."
The problem with Hulk is that it's legitimately not Banner in this continuity. It's the Hulk. How you separate that, I don't know.
Posted on 5/16/16 at 2:35 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:i specifically said this is a flaw in Tonys actions in an earlier post.
What in the past gives anyone the belief that trusting in Ross and the UN is better than trusting in Cap to do the right thing.
Posted on 5/16/16 at 2:37 pm to CarRamrod
quote:
He wants to make all decisions for the Avengers.
No. He doesn't want anyone other than the Avengers making the decisions. He never tried to take control, he just refused to place control in outsider's hands.
quote:
I just felt his whole rebel attitude was childish without trying to talk reason to Tony.
He was ready to compromise until Tony said they were holding Wanda at the Avengers facility.
quote:
And why did Cap take blame and the repercussions for all the innocents killed in the other battles?
He did? When?
Posted on 5/16/16 at 2:37 pm to CarRamrod
quote:
Bucky cant control it..
He can't control it yet.
You've got to at least give him a chance instead of just murdering him b/c he was brainwashed to do things he had no control over.
quote:
Hell Banner tried to but he cant. I dont know where he said it but i believe he said "I tried to eat a bullet and the other guy spit it out."
Banner is a wuss and people (Tony) walk all over him.
Bucky said he ain't dying, and he's willing to do what's necessary to make himself better, but not by killing himself.
Posted on 5/16/16 at 2:37 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:WEll I feel he should have said, well mame there are bad people in this world and Me and the group put that evil down. and if someone gets caught in the cross fire..............
Tony just doens't want to to carry the blame when innocent people die, b/c he's not a super hero. He wants to be able to say, "well ma'am i just met at this conference, your son died b/c General Ross told us to do that, so go cry to him"
As people say, White boy dont go walking through the ghetto alone.
Posted on 5/16/16 at 2:39 pm to Green Chili Tiger
quote:why should be When. When did he take blame, you keep saying he isnt against repercussions..... So why hasnt he taken it yet?
And why did Cap take blame and the repercussions for all the innocents killed in the other battles?
He did? When?
Posted on 5/16/16 at 2:39 pm to CarRamrod
quote:
He wants to make all decisions for the Avengers.
I mean, did you actually see the movie? Cap doesn't want to make decisions for anyone. He wants everyone to make their own decisions. He wants the Avengers to have some agency and make decisions for themselves, as a team and individually. He doesn't want to control people, I have no idea where that idea is coming from?
quote:
I totally understand what you and he were pushing. I just felt his whole rebel attitude was childish without trying to talk reason to Tony.
Um, he does, and he actually considers signing until Tony proves him right by keeping Wanda locked up? He constantly tells Tony why it's wrong.
quote:
Vision said it best. And the one part Cap overlooks. Oversight.
See above. Cap was considering siding, he even tells Tony "There have to be conditions." And Tony replies "We can work with conditions."
Steve was on the cusp of signing. He wasn't rejecting oversight or trying to gain control.
Posted on 5/16/16 at 2:40 pm to CarRamrod
quote:
i specifically said this is a flaw in Tonys actions in an earlier post.
Which is why Tony is wrong, and not right.
Tony's reasoning for wanting to be held in check, is chicken shite. If it was truly to have checks and balances, then Cap wouldn't have had a problem with it, like he said.
Posted on 5/16/16 at 2:40 pm to Green Chili Tiger
quote:well technically it was a a pretty accepted house arrest until hawkeye came in saying OMG you are chained to the wall.
He was ready to compromise until Tony said they were holding Wanda at the Avengers facility.
I hope you realize a lot of what i say is an exaggeration.
Posted on 5/16/16 at 2:41 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
What they should have done to further show Cap's side is have that mom go tell the same sob story to him and hear his response opposed to Tony's.
While I would have loved to hear Cap's response, we can't assume it would be anything close to Tony's.
At the end of the day, Sokovia was 100% Tony's fault. Maybe Banner would share some of that blame, but the rest of the Avengers were just doing their best to clean up Tony's mess.
Posted on 5/16/16 at 2:43 pm to Freauxzen
quote:The idea is coming from the tantrum he threw when one possible choice was put in front of him. Cap should have worked to restructure the command chain rather then just running away to save his friend.
I mean, did you actually see the movie? Cap doesn't want to make decisions for anyone. He wants everyone to make their own decisions. He wants the Avengers to have some agency and make decisions for themselves, as a team and individually. He doesn't want to control people, I have no idea where that idea is coming from?
Posted on 5/16/16 at 2:44 pm to CarRamrod
quote:
I hope you realize a lot of what i say is an exaggeration.
Ok. I guess, but I don't think something like this:
quote:
He wants to make all decisions for the Avengers.
Is not an exaggeration. It's just factually incorrect.
This post was edited on 5/16/16 at 2:49 pm
Posted on 5/16/16 at 2:45 pm to CarRamrod
quote:
WEll I feel he should have said, well mame there are bad people in this world and Me and the group put that evil down. and if someone gets caught in the cross fire..............
but he didn't b/c that's not who Tony is. He's all big and bad and cocky about everything all the time, but for some reason, he can't handle people blaming him for the unfortunate deaths that have happened, which is dumb when you consider he saved a couple million lives already. Literally a couple million.Posted on 5/16/16 at 2:46 pm to CarRamrod
quote:
Cap should have worked to restructure the command chain rather then just running away to save his friend.
"If he's this far gone, I should be the one to bring him in." ..."I'm the one least likely to die while trying." He wasn't trying to save Bucky, he was trying to save other people trying to go after Bucky.
Then when he got the Kill On Sight order, yeah it might have shifted to a little of both.
This post was edited on 5/16/16 at 2:48 pm
Posted on 5/16/16 at 2:53 pm to CarRamrod
quote:
When did he take blame, you keep saying he isnt against repercussions..... So why hasnt he taken it yet?
What are you suggesting he take repercussions for?
Sokovia? He did his level best to save as many people as they could from Tony's mess.
New York? What part of that do you hold him responsible for?
DC? He literally saved 3 million lives by taking down those Helicarriers.
Lagos? Do we hold soldiers accountable for every successful suicide bomber? How many would have died if Crossbones had gotten away with the biological weapon?
Posted on 5/16/16 at 2:58 pm to Green Chili Tiger
quote:
Green Chili Tiger
I just think there are some really unique perspectives around this entire issue. I just can't understand those who think it's just better to stay home and not save anyone at all. It's better for them to retire. I mean, that's essentially what people are arguing for. Let New York happen I guess?
That and the entire issue of Oversight....ok. So if we don't want Steve and team to make decisions because they might make the wrong decision, because they are imperfect. Yet it's ok to trust this other group of people because they will make the right decisions? I mean what's the difference between one group of people and another?
Posted on 5/16/16 at 3:04 pm to Freauxzen
quote:I understand this.
He wasn't trying to save Bucky, he was trying to save other people trying to go after Bucky.
Then when he got the Kill On Sight order, yeah it might have shifted to a little of both.
After going through the whole discussion, To me, i really think my disdain towards Cap boils down to him keeping info from Tony regarding the people going after bucky. All he had to do is say "hey tony blah blah blah these people are doing this" Tony "Shut up Cap" Cap, "Tony here is evidence, look in to it right now" I feel Cap didnt do enough to try and keep the Avengers together as Tony did.
Page 23 of 27
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News